Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive • Hacker News Board

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#61

Post by mstade » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 7:26 PM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #36

citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

> countries like the U.K., who have a strong national identity I laughed, good one. You're aware of Scotland almost voting for independence, and Northern Ireland being demographically only a matter of time until independence (reunification with Ireland)? Or that both of those places voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU? Gibraltar voted 99% remain. So which bit of the UK wants to be an independent nation? There's…

As a non-brit having lived in London for a few years my (mostly but not entirely tounge in cheek) take on it is that it seems pretty much all parts of England loathes every other part of England, to variying degrees; while all other parts of the kingdom also dislikes most of England, to varying degrees. The only thing that seems to unite the British, in my mind, is non-londoner's (and some londoner's too!) dislike for London! (Particularly Westminster, as you mention.)

I suppose they all unite also when England performs well in big soccer games. If they don't do well however...

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#62

Post by isostatic » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 7:30 PM UTC

lawn wrote: post #54

beefield wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wondering, what exactly makes you think the laws shoved to your throat by Sweden would on average be any less idiotic? And why would just Sweden be the right size of entity that optimizes the idiocy of the laws, why independent Skåne would not be shoving less idiotic laws to your throat?

I'm under the illusion it's easier to influence a Swedish politician than it is to influence an order of magnitude more foreign politicians, to get the same proportion of influence. The problem will always be there of course. I'm not saying Sweden is the optimal size, I just find it better than the EU alternative. If you go to the extreme you can get too small as well. For example a society with a couple of thousand…

> I'm under the illusion

I think that's brexit all over, illusion rather than substance.

> it's easier to influence a Swedish politician than it is to influence an order of magnitude more foreign politicians, to get the same proportion of influence.

Yes, and that's bad.

A big benefit of the EU is it's harder to manipulate -- there's a lot more people to control -- at least 16 independent heads of governments and nearly 400 MEPs. Far easier to lean on a single struggling PM and promise your endorsement in return for dinner.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/feb/05/rupert-murdoch...

And the EU's power is limited, by national vetos, and national laws, and the fundamental material scope of eu law. How broad or narrow that scope is of course something to be debated, but the limits are there.

Copyright is clearly is one of those things that needs to be tackled at a level of government higher than the local town council, especially if you have an open market. Imagine a world where a movie made in LA wasn't protected by copyright in New York, let alone Toronto, Paris, or Singapore.

The EU is far more democratic than say the ISDS treaties, WTO and the web of complex interlocking treaties between countries.

> If you go to the extreme you can get too small as well. For example a society with a couple of thousand people is too small to form what's essentially a country. There is no clear cut answer.

Decisions should be taken at as low a level as makes sense. Defense can't be done at a city level, or even a national level for most countries, so these decisions make sense to move to larger areas. How far we're willing to move is an ever changing view, but the principal stands.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#63

Post by mstade » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 7:34 PM UTC

lawn wrote: post #54

beefield wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wondering, what exactly makes you think the laws shoved to your throat by Sweden would on average be any less idiotic? And why would just Sweden be the right size of entity that optimizes the idiocy of the laws, why independent Skåne would not be shoving less idiotic laws to your throat?

I'm under the illusion it's easier to influence a Swedish politician than it is to influence an order of magnitude more foreign politicians, to get the same proportion of influence. The problem will always be there of course. I'm not saying Sweden is the optimal size, I just find it better than the EU alternative. If you go to the extreme you can get too small as well. For example a society with a couple of thousand…

That's interesting, I've found it much easier to get in touch with MEP representatives than it is to get in touch with national politicians, and MEPs have been much more responsive as well. Have you tried contacting any MPs, and/or MEPs, and what was your experience?

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#64

Post by oAlbe » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 7:44 PM UTC

grokys wrote: post #44

luckydata wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm some of this is true, but it would be overstating the division. It's a LONG conversation that I would be happy to have with a couple beers, but as a mixed Piemontese-Sicilian person living in the US I have a little more perspective on that than the average person :)

Ah yes, apologies if I overstated. I should perhaps have said "some people in many parts of Italy still resent...". I'm often told by friends from the south about how the north treated the south during and after unification, and from what I understand there is still a lingering resentment there. I think the point still stands that Italy is not example of a "naturally arisen" national identity anyway. Source: British…

You didn't really overstate it, IMO. The Northern League political party (which at present goes just by The League) stated agenda AND main purpose was to obtain (enforce) fiscal federalism over Italy, in a way that would have effectively split the north from the south economically.

That was the agenda, then of course there are a lot of declinations the whole thing took. Like, as an example, members and sustainer of the Northern League considering the people from the south as "not Italians", derogatorily addressing them as "terroni" and so forth.

Then along came Salvini, who switched the focus from the south of Italy to the refugees, making them the enemy now. And the rest is pretty much in the daily news.

So no, sir, you did not overstate it.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#65

Post by ddebernardy » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 7:59 PM UTC

ptaipale wrote: post #10

amelius wrote: post #7

That's it? Less than half a page to make their argument?

The detailed argumentation is made elsewhere, in a longer format. For a declaration, I think half page is just right. Happy with my government for doing this (but very unhappy with the union).

Save your being unhappy with the union for when the MEPs don't vote this down. Until then, be outraged at the lobbyists that nudged elected governments to support this, while keeping in mind that these elected governments' heads of state are the ones that nominate the head of the EC.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#66

Post by noir_lord » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:00 PM UTC

Zenst wrote: post #39

folbec wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the vote is before brexit it's 23.88% after brexit it's 27.42%.

You raise a very poignant point, should votes that are borderline, that the UK MEP's have voted recently be reviewed?

Only if the vote is 51.89% to 48.11% on an overly broad decision made against the backdrop of lies, finance illegality and interference from external actors.

I'm totally not bitter though honestly.

If the worst comes to the worst I'll just marry my partner (she'll still be an EU national after March) and take my skills (and taxes) abroad.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#67

Post by craigsmansion » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:03 PM UTC

lawn wrote: post #20

citilife wrote: post #6

The issue I see with the EU, is that it's essentially centralizing all the "countries" into "states". Where by, each of the states will simply answer to the two countries with the most power. Namely Germany, followed by France. Personally, I think it's sad. It's as if we're watching the destruction of all the national identities. Only to be centralized by powers who are only interested in their own national identity.…

As a Swede this is exactly why I'm against the EU. Free trade is great, I get that, but I really don't like the centralization and getting less and less influence. I don't want Germany and France to shove idiotic internet laws down my throat. In some way it's also why I'm rooting for U.K. to leave the EU and for it to work out.

> I don't want Germany and France

That's basically UK propaganda (though they like to focus on Germany).

Granted, the workings of the EU are complicated, but they are not opaque, or particularly unfair towards smaller countries. Downthread you mention connecting to politicians, and it being easier with local politicians. Try e-mailing your MEP once.

As far as things being shoved down one's throat: as far as I know, Sweden is still not using the Euro.

Also, being pro-EU (or at least not anti-EU) is not the same as being pro-federalisation. As you say, "free trade is great", and I think you'll agree that clean beaches aren't too bad either. EU directives and regulations in general are really just the largest common denominator opinions that most countries agree on, and as such get out-sourced to the EU. Our "president" is a moderator of a panel of elected heads of state. There is no reason the EU has to turn out like the US, and not really a lot of appetite for that in various member states.

But regardless, as unbelievable as it sounds for an institution covering 100s of millions of people, the EU is what you make of it. You're a citizen.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#68

Post by Tuna-Fish » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:05 PM UTC

isostatic wrote: post #55

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are looking at are the views of the MEPs. MEPs represent specific people living in the country, not the country as whole. This statement was issued by the countries , meaning the representatives of the governments currently in power in those countries.

Of the listed countries, 6 of the 8 - Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Sweden, Estonia and Denmark - are all 1 constituency countries, so the MEPs represent the entire country MEPs may well decide different things to the government though, just as the U.S. House could have a different view to the Senate.

Proportional representation.

The MEPs don't represent the entire country, they represent the specific people who voted for them. The fundamental principle of who people represent under PR is very different from FPTP.

Under FTPT, the people living in a certain area vote for a "winner", who then represents the entire area. If 51% of the people vote for candidate A, and 49% vote for candidate B, then the wishes of 49% of the constituency go unheard in the parliament.

Under PR, the idea is not to pick a "winner" who takes all and then represents everyone in the parliament, the idea is to match everyone's vote to some candidate(s) according to their preferences, as best allowed by sizes of constituencies, so that as many people as possible have someone they voted for in the parliament. Then the people in the legislative body only represent the people who voted for them.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#69

Post by Sammi » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:17 PM UTC

aikah wrote: post #52

DubiousPusher wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. National identities didn't arise naturally. Many of them were very thoughtfully and intentionally invented. For most of human history, the idea that people over a geography the size of Engalnd would see themselves as one people would've been ridiculous. It's really only in the last 200-400 years that people have accepted the nation…

> The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. As opposed to the pedestal people put supra national institutions such as the EU? Rome? Napoleon's Empire? all failed eventually. > National identities didn't arise naturally. Neither did the European Union. All societies are man made constructs, what your point? > It's only our contemporary bias that tells us that the subordinati…

I think the parent comment is trying to make the point that nation state identity is equally as arbitrary and artificial as a continent identity.

People like identifying with a group. It seems like an innate craving of humanity. I think we should learn to be careful not to be exploited for this craving. Whether it is a nation, the EU, a religion or a soccer team, one should be very very careful.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#70

Post by DelightOne » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 8:29 PM UTC

vanderZwan wrote: post #32

DelightOne wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> introduce laws within their own countries to support the Directive. Why so complicated? It seems a bad idea to have 28 different laws which generally say the same thing but with possibly small differences so it gets a minefield. No wonder EU is a difficult market. Who possibly thought that's a good idea?

Think of it like an interface and an implementation in programming.

With a good interface you do not have to know the implementation. But the implementations here are leaking hard since everybody can and does implement the directive differently, so you can't deal with the interface but you rather have to deal with each implementation separately!

So sadly no interface at all.