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“Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

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Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#151

Post by turc1656 »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #144
turc1656 wrote: post #139

This should surprise no one. I believe this has been known for a while now. This is one of the many reasons I have location services and GPS disabled on my Android and have all that tracking/history disabled in my Google account. GPS is only ever enabled precisely when I need it and only at those times (for navigation only). I also disable my wifi as well for the same reason - Google is able to track your location ba…

Law enforcement will just go to the carriers who have your rough location data regardless of your GPS settings. They probably aren't keeping detailed tracklogs like Google today but I'm sure some fat government contracts can fix that.

Yes, but that gives them tower connectivity only. Which is very, very general in terms of location unless you triangulate the location in real-time. And even then, you have to be connected to at least 3 towers at once for that to be accurate, which to my knowledge is not how phones operate. So they will only get the very rough location based on which tower you were connected to and when. In any modestly populated area that becomes effectively worthless in both practicality and the courtroom. In a city like NYC, that would literally result in a dragnet of tens of thousands for each of the major service providers. Even a bad attorney could get that thrown out immediately.

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#152

Post by philipodonnell »

> Bruley said detectives learned about the potential value of the practice and how to write the warrant applications at an August training seminar held by ZetX, an Arizona-based company that teaches police about cellphone investigations, and sells software called TRAX that generates legal documents and maps cellphone data to assist in analysis. The company holds trainings all across the country.

> Material from the U.S. Department of Justice was presented, said Bruley, including suggested language for use in these types of warrants.

I found this bit to be concerning as well. Create software that is more valuable with more warrants? "Train" officers on how to carefully write warrants to sneak them past overworked and less-technologically-sophisticated judges. Judicial deception as business development.

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#153

Post by IIAOPSW »

jasonjayr wrote: post #136
IIAOPSWmobile wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh come on. we're not talking about mass survaliance here. this is a clear cut case of a warrant, deacribing the place or thing to be searched and or the persons to be siezed, issued by a judge presented with probable cause.im weary of state overreach too but this isnt it.

Remember that protest @ the beginning of Trumps presidency? Or any protest that has elements that go bad? When they were seeking images of people they could recognize in order to detain/question/harass because they were in the vicinity of some mischief? It is already known that agent provocateurs are used to incite peaceful mobs. It would be no great difficulty to use a agent provocateur to give a probable cause to p…

I'll go back even further. Remember when police used honey pot wifi access points at the DAPL protests? Remember the hippie's getting beat at occupy?

You don't need to lecture me. I'm with you. In fact, I participated in the Restore the 4th protests just after the Snowden leaks.

What I'm saying is let's not cry wolf here. Yes surveillance technology can be used to set up a system of oppression. So can many other state apparatuses. If the state had such desire it could skip the middle man of surveillance and skip straight to martial law. That is why we have a system of courts and warrants and checks and balances etc.

A warrant for data highly limited in terms of scope in time and place isn't a threat to civil liberties. A blank check for a Nation State Actor to get any data it wants, anytime, without giving any cause is a threat to civil liberties. We make ourselves look bad when we confuse the two.

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#154

Post by msvbvm60 »

jamiethompson wrote: post #91
astura wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...so? It would be like if the warrant was for the log book of who checked into a hotel during a certian timeframe.

Not really no. That would be clear. This would be like if the warrant was for everyone who checked into "the hotel or hotels within a polygon defined by these coordinates"

If the exact coordinates are provided as part of the request, how is that not clear?

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#155

Post by 908087 »

zyxzevn wrote: post #127

Next steps: Identify all cars near a crime scene.

Thanks to ALPR-laden vehicles constantly cruising around collecting this data for sleazy companies like Vigilant, this is probably already happening.

This will be made even easier as more car manufacturers start installing GPS, wifi and 4G as standard features so they can double dip by collecting data on the people who pay them tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for a car.

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#156

Post by heartbreak »

renholder wrote: post #131
JoeSmithson wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The additional search areas limit the potential for collateral intrusion though, because they are essentially going to be ANDed with the list from the main crime scene not ORed. Even if the whole town visited those markets, it could never be more intrusive. Also, the reasonably wide rectangle is precisely because the location data is not particularly accurate, I am not sure why you think this supports the idea that i…

> I'm honestly shocked that people think that the police are overstepping the mark by requesting anonymised phone data from around the scene of a home invasion murder. I think you're trying to tout that the ends justify the means by obfuscating the facts. There was no murder. The man died of a heart attack. While the home invasion was undoubtly the cause, to arrive at the conclusion that it was murder is disingenuous…

> There was no murder. The man died of a heart attack. While the home invasion was undoubtly the cause, to arrive at the conclusion that it was murder is disingenuous.

This isn’t the detective obfuscating facts, this is you being unfamiliar with felony murder doctrine.

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#157

Post by candiodari »

jamiethompson wrote: post #91
astura wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...so? It would be like if the warrant was for the log book of who checked into a hotel during a certian timeframe.

Not really no. That would be clear. This would be like if the warrant was for everyone who checked into "the hotel or hotels within a polygon defined by these coordinates"

Plus you are perfectly at liberty to lie or not sign the hotel logbook. If you pay cash you cannot easily be traced.

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#158

Post by astura »

jjbinx007 wrote: post #10

So would this work the other way around? Leave your phone at home to prove you didn't go somewhere?

That's one piece of evidence of many a prosecutor and/or jury would take into consideration; just like the other way around.

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#159

Post by turc1656 »

everdrive wrote: post #148
turc1656 wrote: post #139

This should surprise no one. I believe this has been known for a while now. This is one of the many reasons I have location services and GPS disabled on my Android and have all that tracking/history disabled in my Google account. GPS is only ever enabled precisely when I need it and only at those times (for navigation only). I also disable my wifi as well for the same reason - Google is able to track your location ba…

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Android really appears to be a different beast: https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locatio...

Interesting. But Google has something that allows all users to see what has been collected on them. All of my stuff is empty - no website history, no location history, no youtube history, etc. All of it is empty and always has been when I check periodically.

So then the question becomes...is Quartz wrong or is Google simply lying about what they have on me? And FWIW, I checked prior to the Quartz article being written so it would have been before any actions were taken by Google to modify its practices.

Re: “Reverse location” search warrants identify all cellphones near a crime scene

#160

Post by MikeAmelung »

coldtea wrote: post #73
coldtea wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He noted that even if it did target the wrong person, "it doesn't mean they're going to get convicted or arrested, it just gives the detective a look at who could be involved." "Hmm, this black person was near..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubin_Carter (others, too numerous to mention)

There are others, too numerous to mention, yet you used someone that was very likely guilty as your second example? Just wanted to bring this up in case anyone reads your comment and thoughtlessly nods in agreement.
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