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What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

nytimes.com

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Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#81

Post by tptacek »

ericdykstra wrote: post #67
tptacek wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's true. They just suggest it.

No, again, this is blank-slateism. People are born with genetic predispositions that influence things such as height, eye color, mathematical ability, and career preference. You would only expect population-proportionate outcomes if genetics played no role. Even if they only play a 10% role, you get vastly different outcomes.

No, you're falsely projecting your own concerns about your interlocutors onto me. It doesn't follow from "sharply disparate outcomes suggest unfairness" that I must be a "blank-slate" purist. And, in fact, your response suggests you're the one with the extremist take: that disparate outcomes are most likely the result of fair processes running on unequal inputs. Approximately nobody on HN believes processes in general to be fair (see: any thread about which companies VCs choose to fund, or about the impact of lobbying on government decisions).

I conceded something about the point you made --- that disparate outcomes are not dispositive of structural unfairness --- and you responded to that concession by trying to caricature me. In this exchange, you have not come across as someone trying to discuss a complicated issue in good faith. Try again.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#82

Post by lordnacho »

The thing with prejudice is nobody will ever admit to being prejudiced. All you can do is piece it together. Sometimes your working hypothesis is that it's just noise, other times it's prejudice.

I brought in a woman to work on a project once, and it was awful.

Despite her doing objectively better work than what was available before, my partners decided everything she did needed criticism. Never anything substantial, just pretend criticism meant to look like they knew what they were talking about. And one of them wanted veto on all the work, despite knowing very little about it.

They questioned whether she'd have been on the project if she didn't know me, which is pretty out there given she did this for a living for some very well known firms.

Then they called her something offensive in front of her, and when I called them out on it, they pretended it was a joke intended to make her feel like part of the team.

Can you ever conclude what people's true motivations are? Not really. Could someone genuinely have felt that some person's work was substandard, they didn't get the job legitimately, and could they screw up some office banter? Sure.

It took me a long time to think this through, but in the end it misogyny seemed to be the only answer. We'd worked with plenty of incompetents before without saying much, and hired plenty of people (all guys) through the friends network. We'd never had anyone get bullied like that in the office, though.

Story got a whole lot worse later, but that's for another time.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#83

Post by stcredzero »

tyler- wrote: post #23

People from poor demographics in general are discriminated against in various ways. Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math courses beyond calculus. Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted. That kid from a better off family that shows talent in m…

Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math courses beyond calculus.

I've read and listened to a number of accounts about how peers in poor neighborhoods are the biggest barrier to academic achievement.

Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted.

Or worse, your peers punish you for your ability. In my personal experience, they can even tell you that you are sexually inadequate and somehow less essentially human. This feedback is all the worse, because it is genuinely believed by the one giving it.

That kid from a better off family that shows talent in math? Probably get recognized for it from an early age and gets tutors and advanced training. Probably already completed proof based courses in analysis, algebra by the time they completed high school. They get into better schools and have ahead start. Even if they are just as talented as you the poor kid.

There are cultural contexts where children form groups and help each other and offer moral support. Such social interaction seems to be attached to high performance in just about every human endeavor where skill and knowledge are important. One study found that Asian kids were very good at forming such peer groups to study math, and that African American children were much more prone to studying alone. Asian cultures are noteworthy, in that academic achievement is prized even by the poorer segments of society, though I've also known African Americans who are from families with such a subculture which prizes knowledge and academic achievement.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#84

Post by Mirioron »

afiori wrote: post #40
smallgovt wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the unintended consequence of hiring and promoting based on identity instead of merit. I would argue that the more apt description is: This is the unintended consequence of hiring and promoting based on aptitude instead of current qualification. In other words, when you see a 'less-qualified' individual who 'made it due to affirmative action', it may be constructive to remember that they are probably just a…

> In a way, affirmative action is rewarding merit -- it's just a different definition of merit that looks at how much you've excelled in your field in the context of the difficulties you faced along the way. This a good way to put it, but under this light an income-based affirmative action would maybe make more sense. Even better if based on both the income of you family and the Gini coefficient of you district/city/…

I don't see how affirmative action makes sense. I can understand spending more resources to catch people up from poor backgrounds, so that they can pass the bar, but I don't see why you would want to lower the bar.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#85

Post by swebs »

pvg wrote: post #47
avip wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is also not helping that there actually is such a thing as "token X". A less discussed side effect of affirmative action.

I don't think that's the thing that's 'not helping', here.

Justice Clarence Thomas would disagree.

https://www.newsweek.com/lithwick-what-clarence-thomas-and-p...

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#86

Post by willpiers »

sctb wrote: post #73
willpiers wrote: post #8

I fail to see how either of your anecdotes constitute racism

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19193568 .

why? I don't mind being downvoted, and I enjoy reading the responses. Is it infringing on peoples' safe spaces?

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#87

Post by barberousse »

lotaezenwa wrote: post #64
cc81 wrote: post #58

I don't doubt that there absolutely exists prejudices in this case but I also wonder how many will also be created by one self in that situation just because how the human mind works. I used to have quite a lot of acne and it really got to my head. It of course did affect how people treated me, especially girls, because acne is not very attractive however after a while I probably read into things way more than I shou…

So you believe your experience with acne could be a lot like people experiencing racism?

I cannot believe you got downvoted into grey text already despite how obviously terrible this person's comparison is. Not to mention the insinuation that the experience of racism may just be the spotlight effect. Literally the most general and ubiquitous claim you see made whenever topics around racial experience come up.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#88

Post by rudedogg »

lotaezenwa wrote: post #64
cc81 wrote: post #58

I don't doubt that there absolutely exists prejudices in this case but I also wonder how many will also be created by one self in that situation just because how the human mind works. I used to have quite a lot of acne and it really got to my head. It of course did affect how people treated me, especially girls, because acne is not very attractive however after a while I probably read into things way more than I shou…

So you believe your experience with acne could be a lot like people experiencing racism?

I feel like your comment is disingenuous. He's saying that we all feel slighted, and perhaps cases where minorities feel slighted, is just that.

A case mentioned from the article that gave me this vibe:

> “A couple of them were at a board writing something,” he recalled. “I went over and asked, ‘What are you guys working on?’”

> “We’re too far in to catch you up,” he said he was told.

I know personally, I used to feel very "in tune" to how people perceived me. I read a book on body language when I was younger, and would constantly analyze how people moved ("head tilted, they think this is interesting", "arms crossed, they're defensive"), etc. It went further than that - analyzing language etc.

But, there were some cases were I was certain someone was being an asshole to me - but I learned I was wrong. Now I'm much more restrictive in how I pass judgement on someone.

I hope others give me that benefit, because I constantly find myself thinking of how something I said in conversation could be misunderstood, etc. Communication is hard.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#89

Post by iguy »

_bxg1 wrote: post #63
iguy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But "shares your cultural background" is in large measure something we choose. Not necessarily as individuals, but as a society, in what we emphasise. Why can't "American" be the right cultural background, or better yet for math nerd kids, "mathematicians who are also musicians" (common), or "mathematicians who like drawing pictures" / "hate drawing pictures" (most depts have both)? Instead we choose always to emphas…

> Why can't "American" be the right cultural background, or better yet for math nerd kids, "mathematicians who are also musicians" (common), or "mathematicians who like drawing pictures" / "hate drawing pictures" (most depts have both)? Because America consists of multiple strongly-cohesive subcultures that aren't as simple as "American", but go much deeper than hobbies. Of course there are no hard lines, but if we'r…

These aren't hobbies. Number theorists and topologists have minds that work in profoundly different ways. Talented 12-year-olds will like some kinds of problems much more than others. I think a great outreach goal would be to get them rooting for one team or the other -- to give them an identity within mathematics, in other words.

I'm not suggesting we can eliminate all other subcultures at the stoke of a pen. But do think they can grow or die in strength as a result of our actions.

I have more sympathy for the seeing-someone-like-yourself argument when talking about aspiring pop stars (or politicians) who need to imagine themselves being on TV. But I'm dubious for mathematicians, most of whom apply to grad school because they still like solving problems, not because they imagine themselves in a job.

Re: What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

#90

Post by tptacek »

eruci wrote: post #74
tptacek wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guidelines ask you to write more carefully as topics get divisive, but you're doing the opposite: talking about the "madness" of affirmative action is emotional language that does nothing but polarize the thread. Plenty of HN people respectfully and carefully disagree with affirmative action; if you can't be one of them, step aside and let them do it instead.

Agreed! Should have used the word "irrational" instead.

You understand that there are many coherent rational arguments in favor of affirmative action, and that what you're really having is a disagreement over some pretty complicated premises that are unlikely to be disposed of in short, pithy comments, right? I try hard to listen to conservatives despite being a liberal and have learned to dial my hackles down in conversations about race-based affirmative action because, while I disagree with conservatives on that point, I'm not going to get anywhere by claiming that the fairness and practicality of affirmative action is a received truth. You're going to have to do the same thing with your opposition to affirmative action.
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