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I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

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Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#111

Post by JdeBP »

appleflaxen wrote: post #84
coldtea wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a good starting point: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Alternative_keyboard_layouts Also: http://xahlee.info/kbd/most_efficient_keyboard_layout.html

i spent several minutes on both of these sites. they are interesting extensions into the topic of keyboard layouts, but there was almost no research or data on them, other than simple mechanical metrics.

For a more formal approach, see Malt and Hobday.

* https://www.maltron.com/lillian-malt-papers.html

* https://www.maltron.com/a-keyboard-to-increase-productivity-...

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#112

Post by kkarakk »

___alt wrote: post #68
jamestomasino wrote: post #29

It doesn't look like anyone has yet addressed my biggest PRO for switching to Dvorak. It has pretty much healed my RSI. QWERTY had caused a huge drain on my ability to type. I was at risk for being unable to continue my work if the pain progressed. I made the admittedly-difficult switch to Dvorak and that went away almost immediately. My typing speed is on-par with what it was with QWERTY. I can type out conversation…

Imho, this is were alternative layouts really shine: comfort, health. Typing speed is an overrated fad (and in the worst cases an e-penis length contest) as in most cases when writing stuff (be it fiction, reports, code) your throughput isn't limited by typing speed. Avoiding injuries on the other hand is invaluable.

saying it doesn't affect code writing speed is incorrect imo- after you've laid out your algorithm in pseudo code being able to quickly type it out is invaluable time savings. even if you try and automate it all away with shortcuts and refactors it still takes time to press those shortcuts for someone who's familiar with the keys and able to maximise their APM(actions per minute)

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#113

Post by icebraining »

Alex3917 wrote: post #31
cecilpl2 wrote: post #11

I've been typing dvorak primarily for about 20 years, also since I was in high school, and I highly recommend it. I agree that switching is a pain in the ass. It will make you essentially unable to type for about 2-4 weeks. Ctrl-C/V/X is a valid concern. I fixed it by mapping mouse buttons to copy/paste, and also getting an Advantage2 Kinesis into which I've programming custom keybinding for Undo/Redo/Copy/Cut/Paste.…

> I've been typing dvorak primarily for about 20 years, also since I was in high school Same. I type on my laptop pretty much all day, and am not even close to having an RSI. To me using QWERTY just seems irresponsible, like driving without a seatbelt or something. If you don't use a computer that much then I guess that's one thing, but if you actually use one on a daily basis for your job and are using QWERTY then t…

Everyone here seems to be saying that switching immediately eliminated their pain, so what's the risk? One can just switch when they start feeling pain.

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#114

Post by audunw »

I've used Dvorak for 10 years or so. Dvorak has no benefits when it comes to speed. It's all about comfort, and there IS a very big difference. I use Qwerty too now and then, and you really feel your fingers darting all over the place to a much higher degree.

I'm not sure I would recommend it unless you convert sometime during your high school or student years. I converted in the last year of high school. I have a colleague that converted just a year ago though, so it is possible after starting work as well

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#115

Post by blunte »

Kiro wrote: post #99
blunte wrote: post #69

Considering the author did not begin the Dvorak journey as a touch typist, their experience doesn't carry much weight with me. I took the time to learn Dvorak (years ago), and I found it very much nicer for typing prose. However, I couldn't code with it (and I didn't try a code-focused version). Perhaps I should have tried different Dvorak variations to find one that was still better than QWERTY for writing while als…

> As an aside, why why why do people use the international keyboard layout? That's like saying "why do characters outside standard English exist?". I honestly don't understand what you're complaining about. People use international keyboard layouts because they want to write another language than English.

UK and Netherlands use an international keyboard with a tilda ~ key where the return key should be, and a backslash key where the left shift should be.

To hit return requires actually moving the right hand to reach return. How often is that tilda needed? That is a poor trade.

Moving the shift key away is even worse, because it's a modifier key. Now you cannot press shift with your left pinky finger while also reaching several of the left hand keys.

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#116

Post by JdeBP »

hannob wrote: post #94

Both the article and most of the comments here don't seem to touch the elephant in the room: There's no reliable scientific evidence for Dvorak or any other keyboard being any better. Here's an article covering the flimsy evidence: https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/1999/04/01/t... Is there a place for better keyboard layouts? Maybe. Show me properly controlled studies and I'll take it seriously.

Actually, the elephant in the room is that rearranging the keyboard map whilst still retaining the ISO 9995 parallelogram physical positioning is to entirely miss a major factor. (-:

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#117

Post by audunw »

busterarm wrote: post #97
cecilpl2 wrote: post #11

I've been typing dvorak primarily for about 20 years, also since I was in high school, and I highly recommend it. I agree that switching is a pain in the ass. It will make you essentially unable to type for about 2-4 weeks. Ctrl-C/V/X is a valid concern. I fixed it by mapping mouse buttons to copy/paste, and also getting an Advantage2 Kinesis into which I've programming custom keybinding for Undo/Redo/Copy/Cut/Paste.…

I've been on a computer pretty much 12-16 hours a day for 30 years now. Dvorak only makes sense to me if you only have to use a single keyboard/workstation for all of your computing time consistently. On my own I have four different machines/OS and I frequently have to type at other peoples'. I spent 10 years in Dvorak, Colemak and a variety of modified Colemak layouts before settling back on qwerty. I never noticed…

> if you only have to use a single keyboard/workstation for all of your computing time consistently.

The keyboard itself is irrelevant. I'd recommend getting a keyboard without labels to free yourself from the idea that you need to look at them.

All of the time? I don't get this. There's no problem switching between Dvorak and Qwerty if you do it regularly. It's like switching between bicycling and snowboarding.. you just switch the context for your muscle memory. Although you'll probably have a bit higher error rate on the layout you use less

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#118

Post by blunte »

flemming_geir wrote: post #105
blunte wrote: post #69

Considering the author did not begin the Dvorak journey as a touch typist, their experience doesn't carry much weight with me. I took the time to learn Dvorak (years ago), and I found it very much nicer for typing prose. However, I couldn't code with it (and I didn't try a code-focused version). Perhaps I should have tried different Dvorak variations to find one that was still better than QWERTY for writing while als…

> Worse yet, their lost space is taken by less frequently used keys. Which keys are these in my international layout and how often do I use them?

There are many different international variants, but I was referring to the one common in the UK and Netherlands.

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#119

Post by miguelrochefort »

I switched to Dvorak in 2009, so effectively 10 years ago.

I don't generally recommend it to people, but I don't regret switching. It's never been a problem, other than discouraging me from learning Vim.

I learned to touch-type while learning Dvorak, and I can't type in QWERTY anymore, so I can't really tell how much of the benefits can be attributed to Dvorak vs touch-typing.

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#120

Post by audunw »

coldtea wrote: post #15

It's not yes. It was non-scientifically created and self-promoted to hell from the inventor in the early 20th century, for commercial interests. And there are a lot of myths about Qwerty too: https://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html Not to mention that for programmers it's even more complicated. Most of our symbols we use most of the time (e.g. { } ; -, _) have nothing to do with DVORAK vs QWERTY, and the distri…

> That said, there are better researched layouts that DVORAK, with actual modern research behind them.

From what I've read the difference between from Qwerty to Dvorak is much bigger than from Dvorak to the more optimized layouts. They add marginal improvements. As you say yourself, no layout can be perfect in every context. So since Dvorak is built in to most OSs these days, it's a very good compromise.

Dvorak isn't meant to be a holy grail, just a nice comfort boost.

For professional programmers I can recommend getting the ErgoDox keyboard to optimize access to special characters.

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