The Path Amazon Rejected • Hacker News Board

Re: The Path Amazon Rejected

#61

Post by narendranag » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 4:07 AM UTC

As a non-American, I have a question about two things that stand out for me (and do correct me if I'm wrong): the first is that Amazon pays no federal taxes. The second is that corporations seem to expect locals to pay for things that they can then make money off — Amazon's installation in this instance but also American football stadiums stand out as an egregious example.

What responsibility (if any) do American companies have towards the communities/societies they exist in (beyond delivering value to shareholders -- wherever they may be)?

Re: The Path Amazon Rejected

#62

Post by lamarpye » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 4:07 AM UTC

baddox wrote: post #39

nickonline wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They offered Amazon $3B tax breaks, while the city would have profited $27B. The city would have a net gain of $24B. Now the city doesn't gain anything.

That seems overly simplistic. I doubt that Amazon are the only ones with any likelihood of bringing new jobs to New York in the near future.

> I doubt that Amazon are the only ones with any likelihood of bringing new jobs to New York in the near future.

Not anymore. Why would a company want the hassle? Go to New York and have an idiot bartender trash our goodwill or go somewhere else where they roll out the red carpet for us.

Re: The Path Amazon Rejected

#63

Post by _bxg1 » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 4:09 AM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #57

slowmovintarget wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reality doesn't allow people to have it both ways. Either be upset that the system incentivizes the behavior, or be upset that the incentives failed. In both of those cases, the blame lies at the feet of the elected officials. Granted, the implication of that is the blame lies at the feet of those who cast the ballots (George Carlin, we miss you). People always have trouble blaming themselves. Corporations are jello.…

Using this logic, people aren't allowed to be upset at anything, as long as it's a rational action within a system. This is a weird way to look at things! You can justify all sorts of reprehensible behavior this way. "Either be upset that the system incentivizes slavery, or be upset that the incentives against slavery failed." But definitely don't be upset at the slaveowners!

Exactly. Realistically, most large-scale businesses will amorally fill whatever set of incentives exist around them, and the most effective way to keep them from being destructive is to regulate. However, businesses are made of people, and those people still have a moral obligation to society, even if most of the ones at the top ignore it. Actions beyond moral shaming need to be taken, but one doesn't preclude the other.

Re: The Path Amazon Rejected

#64

Post by bobthepanda » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 4:11 AM UTC

tracer4201 wrote: post #16

I don't understand the outrage towards Amazon. 1. No one forced any of these states/cities to join this bidding contest. They willingly participated. "How dare Amazon put cities against one another in a bidding war?!" Yeah, I put five dealers against one another in a bidding war to get my business the last time I shopped for a car. Amazon can do the same thing. 2. "Jeff Bezos doesn't need our tax breaks!" I bet he do…

> No one forced any of these states/cities to join this bidding contest. They willingly participated.

This lacks context. Bill de Blasio and Andrew Cuomo participated in the bidding context, basically by themselves. They didn't have a mandate to do this from anybody, since no one ever mentioned groveling on their feet to shovel tax breaks at a corporation. (In fact, Bill de Blasio was pretty much elected on a 'soak the rich' platform, which is a line he is more than happy to push when he knows there is no realistic chance of it actually happening.) They then conspired to do an end run around the legislative branches of their respective jurisdictions, and almost succeeded.

American states and cities are not authoritarian or run by a single emperor. There are built in checks and balances, and quite frankly everyone involved misjudged the pushback they would get by openly trying to ignore all of that.

Re: The Path Amazon Rejected

#65

Post by lamarpye » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 4:12 AM UTC

perfmode wrote: post #30

joemaller1 wrote: post #12

> Just days before, I had counseled a senior Amazon executive... Can pretty much stop there. I think Amazon saw a mayor and governor who thought they traded tax breaks for a say in how Amazon runs its business. This was a huge loss for the city. LIC will be toxic to big business for years. And now the mayor is passing the blame to the very corporations who would come in and create jobs.

NYC doesn’t need their jobs.

Right. The State Government is running a huge surplus:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/tax-shortfalls-widen-new-yorks-...

Re: The Path Amazon Rejected

#66

Post by zaptheimpaler » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 4:15 AM UTC

jvreagan wrote: post #59

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is exploitative. Any company founded in the US is going to use the resources US provides - roads, trade & economic power, the USPS, the talent pool etc for Amazon. When their success is built on that foundation, they owe it to the government (& taxpayers) to return the favor and show some goodwill. Instead, taxpayers subsidize them when they're growing, then they want to cheat as much as legally possible on their…

> then they want to cheat as much as legally possible on their taxes when they're grown up. If it's legal, it isn't cheating...

Only if you believe there is no difference between whats legal and whats moral.

Re: The Path Amazon Rejected

#67

Post by bogomipz » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 4:16 AM UTC

boron1006 wrote: post #21

dvt wrote: post #4

I don't buy de Blasio's outrage. If he was truly worried about Amazon being a "bad neighbor," why did he have a carte blanche policy until the very moment they backed off? In fact, it took regular citizens asking the hard questions for Amazon to back off in the first place. Aren't we electing mayors to fight these fights for us ?

Not to mention the tax breaks that the city was giving Amazon are still available for pretty much any company.

This line that "any company" could get these incentives from the city is being parroted and its simply not true. Of the 4 sources of incentives only two were city programs:

City: Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP) and the Industrial Commercial Abatement Program (ICAP) programs. REAP credits for instance are not available to retail or hotels. Retail is particularly sensitive subject in NYC as it has been visibly blighted. Also it only applies to business relocating to either above 96th street or the outer boroughs.

State: The $505 million capital grant and $1.2 billion in “Excelsior” credits are most certainly not available to "pretty much any company." The eligibility guidelines are actually very specific[1]

[1] https://esd.ny.gov/excelsior-jobs-program

Re: The Path Amazon Rejected

#68

Post by roenxi » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 4:17 AM UTC

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #36

tracer4201 wrote: post #16

I don't understand the outrage towards Amazon. 1. No one forced any of these states/cities to join this bidding contest. They willingly participated. "How dare Amazon put cities against one another in a bidding war?!" Yeah, I put five dealers against one another in a bidding war to get my business the last time I shopped for a car. Amazon can do the same thing. 2. "Jeff Bezos doesn't need our tax breaks!" I bet he do…

It is exploitative. Any company founded in the US is going to use the resources US provides - roads, trade & economic power, the USPS, the talent pool etc for Amazon. When their success is built on that foundation, they owe it to the government (& taxpayers) to return the favor and show some goodwill. Instead, taxpayers subsidize them when they're growing, then they want to cheat as much as legally possible on their…

> exploitative

That isn't an appropriate word. Clearly, the City of NY, or whoever is negotiating with Amazon, is big enough not to be pushed around if they don't want to be. It is a negotiation.

It the political system is screwing over tax payers, that flat out isn't Amazon's problem. It is the voters' problem.

> When their success is built on that foundation, they owe it to the government (& taxpayers) to return the favor and show some goodwill.

The philosophical point of a corporation in a capitalist system is to create goods and services as cheaply as possible. In theory, it would be nice not to charge corporations any tax, to keep prices low, and only tax the income and capital gains of the owner as money flows out to them from the company.

I doubt that absolutist approach works in practice; the situation isn't simple enough and the capitalists would figure out some sort of creative accounting scheme to avoid the money ever making it to them (actually, pretty sure they already do that in America, since American corps usually don't pay dividends). But in theory corporate tax is just bad for everyone.

Re: The Path Amazon Rejected

#69

Post by geuszb » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 4:27 AM UTC

unreal37 wrote: post #14

Mayor of New York: You gotta be tough to make it in New York. Businesses with lots of money: Let's go where it's easier

Not all businesses with a lot of money... For example, the financial industry is not going to leave New York anytime soon, as New York is their talent hub.

Re: The Path Amazon Rejected

#70

Post by greenyoda » Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 4:29 AM UTC

perfmode wrote: post #33

trikonasana wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems to be the popular opinion (that this is Amazon's fault) but I disagree. Amazon coming to LIC would have been a net benefit for everyone. 25k jobs that pay a minimum wage of $15/hour...who would reject that? Sure they get a $3b tax break, but they would have paid far more than that in state taxes over the long term. The people on the city council did not represent the the best interest of the citizens, inst…

How much did amazon pay in federal and state taxes in 2017 or 2018?

Even if Amazon paid no corporate income tax at all, their 25,000 employees would still be paying many millions of dollars a year in state and local income taxes, real estate taxes and sales taxes. And both Amazon and its employees would be buying lots of goods and services from local businesses, generating even more taxable economic activity.

Some of these employees might even eventually leave Amazon and found new startups in NYC.