I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that • Hacker News Board

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#31

Post by Alex3917 » Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 9:17 PM UTC

cecilpl2 wrote: post #11

I've been typing dvorak primarily for about 20 years, also since I was in high school, and I highly recommend it. I agree that switching is a pain in the ass. It will make you essentially unable to type for about 2-4 weeks. Ctrl-C/V/X is a valid concern. I fixed it by mapping mouse buttons to copy/paste, and also getting an Advantage2 Kinesis into which I've programming custom keybinding for Undo/Redo/Copy/Cut/Paste.…

> I've been typing dvorak primarily for about 20 years, also since I was in high school

Same. I type on my laptop pretty much all day, and am not even close to having an RSI. To me using QWERTY just seems irresponsible, like driving without a seatbelt or something. If you don't use a computer that much then I guess that's one thing, but if you actually use one on a daily basis for your job and are using QWERTY then that just seems like a huge and unnecessary risk for both yourself and your employer/startup.

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#32

Post by jamestomasino » Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 9:18 PM UTC

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #17

I'm disappointed that this article is no different from all the other articles on keyboard layouts that I've ever encountered and ignores non-English uses. Obviously, a post written in English has no good reason describing a Norwegian-specific alternative to QWERTY, but it still manages to ignore half of the population of English-speaking people by not taking into account using multiple languages on the same keyboard…

My experience isn't much, but as a Dvorak user I can say that I haven't had any issues with Icelandic. I'm on linux which has great compose-key combinations. I haven't used anything but default Dvorak on an American layout or ortholinear keyboard. Hope that helps a bit.

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#33

Post by coldtea » Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 9:22 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #15

It's not yes. It was non-scientifically created and self-promoted to hell from the inventor in the early 20th century, for commercial interests. And there are a lot of myths about Qwerty too: https://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html Not to mention that for programmers it's even more complicated. Most of our symbols we use most of the time (e.g. { } ; -, _) have nothing to do with DVORAK vs QWERTY, and the distri…

On a sidenote: we worry about "singularity AI" and expect "SAE level 5 driving cars"...

How about we solve the much easier problem of "typing much fewer words"?

We don't even have a good auto-complete story yet in most IDEs, even less so a general purpose predictor that puts whole worlds at our disposal as we type.

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#34

Post by eftychis » Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #17

I'm disappointed that this article is no different from all the other articles on keyboard layouts that I've ever encountered and ignores non-English uses. Obviously, a post written in English has no good reason describing a Norwegian-specific alternative to QWERTY, but it still manages to ignore half of the population of English-speaking people by not taking into account using multiple languages on the same keyboard…

The situation is worse for non-latin-alphabet based languages, especially if the alphabet is not ~20-30 letters.

Some selected examples:

https://www.branah.com/korean https://www.branah.com/japanese https://www.branah.com/greek https://www.branah.com/hindi https://www.branah.com/tagalog https://www.branah.com/tamazight https://www.branah.com/sundanese https://www.branah.com/tibetan

I am not a speaker of many of the languages above. Thus, I think it would be great if native speakers share their input on the issues and what the optimal keyboard would look like in their mind.

In general, we are trying to shoehorn a language to an existing keyboard design and layout, that was designed for a totally different purpose and times. Perhaps, it is time we redesign the whole concept.

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#35

Post by whack » Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 9:26 PM UTC

On a similar note, let me say something which is sure to be controversial/unpopular on HN. I type with 2-3 fingers, and I can tell you that the "peckers" like me aren't missing out on much either. I can consistently type at 60-70 wpm, and that's after adjusting for typos. A big part of that comes down to me having memorized the keyboard layout, and not having to look at the keyboard at all while typing. I've also never suffered from RSI, and that might be a positive side effect of my hands being more mobile.

And I'm not an exception either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typing#Hybrid

"The number of fingers does not determine typing speed... People using self-taught typing strategies were found to be as fast as trained typists... instead of the number of fingers, there are other factors that predict typing speed... fast typists... keep their hands fixed on one position, instead of moving them over the keyboard, and more consistently use the same finger to type a certain letter."

Would it be great to be able to type 100+ wpm? Sure. But if I have to dedicate all that time and effort, I'd much rather spend it on something else. Like learning a new technology or taking time off to pursue other interests. Besides, the amount of time I spend typing is a fraction of the amount of time I spend thinking. I honestly doubt that my 60+ wpm has held me back in any significant way.

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#36

Post by hopler » Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 9:27 PM UTC

jamestomasino wrote: post #29

It doesn't look like anyone has yet addressed my biggest PRO for switching to Dvorak. It has pretty much healed my RSI. QWERTY had caused a huge drain on my ability to type. I was at risk for being unable to continue my work if the pain progressed. I made the admittedly-difficult switch to Dvorak and that went away almost immediately. My typing speed is on-par with what it was with QWERTY. I can type out conversation…

Through my 20years of typing and texting with terrible posture and exercise habits, and bouts of debilitating RSI where I immobilized my arm, and experimenting with Dvorak, I found that the main way to reduce my RSI symptoms was to stop hanging out in areas where people talked about RSI.

Even now, just getting into the thread makes my wrists tingle

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#37

Post by vaylian » Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 9:27 PM UTC

secure wrote: post #19

I’ve been using https://neo-layout.org/ for about 10 years, which is a keyboard layout optimized for German, English, Programming, Maths, in that order. It has many layers with conveniently located “special” keys. Dvorak only rearranges the main layer. NEO introduces a bunch of useful ones. Adopting an ergonomic keyboard layout doesn’t typically make you a faster typist, but it makes typing more pleasant.

It seems that most non US keyboard layouts suck really hard for programming, because the special symbols are in hard to reach places. Neo really fixes this by having a layer 3 that gives easy access to all important programming symbols. And with the layout it is also reasonably simple to write texts in various western languages beyond German and English.

Because Neo repurposes CAPS LOCK it is adviseable to have a ISO keyboard with 105 keys and not a ANSI keyboard without the second CAPS LOCK key. But I've also used Neo with ANSI keyboards in the past...

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#38

Post by userbinator » Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 9:28 PM UTC

jamestomasino wrote: post #29

It doesn't look like anyone has yet addressed my biggest PRO for switching to Dvorak. It has pretty much healed my RSI. QWERTY had caused a huge drain on my ability to type. I was at risk for being unable to continue my work if the pain progressed. I made the admittedly-difficult switch to Dvorak and that went away almost immediately. My typing speed is on-par with what it was with QWERTY. I can type out conversation…

I have observed many others who complained about their hands hurting after typing for a short time, and the one thing that stands out is they all seem to have an unusually "tense" posture and almost "attack" the keyboard whenever they type, striking the keys much harder than they need to and making excessively abrupt movements. They also wonder why they can't type very fast and tire quickly, while others like me can type all day at 130WPM on a standard QWERTY board without getting tired.

What I've found to be most important is to relax. Press the keys smoothly and deliberately, without tensing your fingers and trying to maintain a stiff posture. Use a softer keyboard if you can. Your comfort and speed will go up.

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#39

Post by huntie » Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 9:28 PM UTC

I've been using Colemak for about 3.5 years. I think I was at 80wpm with qwerty and within 2 weeks I was up to 40wpm with colemak. Probably within a month or two I was back to 80wpm. I started using it for RSI reasons, but I'm not sure if it helped; I don't have RSI issues much anymore though. Biggest thing preventing me from switching again is VIM, I learned VIM right after I switched.

It took a really long time before my spelling adapted to colemak, I think 2-3years.

One of the nice things about colemak is that cxv are in the same position as qwerty so cut/copy/paste work the same, and the only special key that's moved is the semicolon.

Re: I’ve used Dvorak for 10 years, and it’s not all that

#40

Post by xiii1408 » Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 9:35 PM UTC

whack wrote: post #35

On a similar note, let me say something which is sure to be controversial/unpopular on HN. I type with 2-3 fingers, and I can tell you that the "peckers" like me aren't missing out on much either. I can consistently type at 60-70 wpm, and that's after adjusting for typos. A big part of that comes down to me having memorized the keyboard layout, and not having to look at the keyboard at all while typing. I've also nev…

I can type at 120 WPM, and it's not all that useful. I'd gladly halve my typing speed if it meant avoiding the occasional bout of RSI.