Live data from Hacker News

The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

bloomberg.com

71–80 of 151 posts

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#71
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California has prop 13 which results in property taxes not keeping up with assessments.

To be fair, just because the marginal house sells for more doesn't mean that providing local services is commensurately more expensive.

In the case of expensive urban areas it kind of does.

High housing costs mean that literally everything in an area is more expensive. All services and all goods require human labor - people to load and unload trucks, stock shelves, stand behind registers, prepare goods and services etc..

High rents are a massive transfer of wealth over time from everyone else to landlords. So yes, increased housing costs do make all local services cost more, at the expense of the general public and for the benefit of landlords.

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#72
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the benefit of actual living quarters for the tenants? Who besides a landlord is going to rent 4 walls and a roof to someone who needs it? Seems similar to saying that hotel owners 'contribute nothing to the general welfare'.

> What about the benefit of actual living quarters for the tenants? Would you argue that patents and copyright should last infinitely long because the world is richer forever due to the one solitary act of the inventor? Landlords hold a monopoly over the land they own as much as copyright holders own a monopoly on the IP they own. I think it's quite reasonable to ask if that monopoly deserves to be forever. I agree w…

I personally think landlords are skewing way too much towards rent seeking right now.

But in theory, a landlord could serve a similar function as a futures trader. They are speculators who mediate risk of rent. If renting becomes unprofitable then landlords lose money as rent_money < (mortgage + property tax)

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#73
post #36
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only because we easily dismiss the evil perpetuated in the colonies, push those things under the rag, and revise history to rewrite Hitler as the only evil in the world. It's understandable to some degree. After all, Churchill and colonialists just enslaved and killed inferior third world peoples (who cares about them), while Nazi Germany occupied and killed westerners...

What I find most curious is that exactly one of the groups the Nazis systematically slaughtered went from being widely regarded as an acceptable target for racist degradation to being given a country, despite ~2,000 years of being treated as literally the servants of Satan, while the other groups the Nazis targeted only gradually gained equal rights. What’s up with that? I wish we could give every disadvantaged group…

The Israelis weren't entirely given Israel, they took it at gunpoint ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931949_Palestine_wa... ). Anti-semitism is still a real problem and there are plenty of people willing to claim that the k word is "acceptable".

What was unique was the coordination of the diaspora to achieve the founding of the Jewish state.

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#74
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the benefit of actual living quarters for the tenants? Who besides a landlord is going to rent 4 walls and a roof to someone who needs it? Seems similar to saying that hotel owners 'contribute nothing to the general welfare'.

> What about the benefit of actual living quarters for the tenants? Would you argue that patents and copyright should last infinitely long because the world is richer forever due to the one solitary act of the inventor? Landlords hold a monopoly over the land they own as much as copyright holders own a monopoly on the IP they own. I think it's quite reasonable to ask if that monopoly deserves to be forever. I agree w…

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're advocating for the landlord to lose ownership of their property?

If so, question of my own. The landlord worked and spent resources (time, money) to increase his assets (develop the property). You, at your job, worked and spent resources (time, etc.) to increase your assets (e.g. size of your bank account). Do you think you should have indefinite ownership of your bank account?

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can ignore any villainy by this formula. "All leaders are villains, so I'm turning my attention elsewhere." As Edmund Burke or someone said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Also, it relies on equating hard moral choices with villainy. A hard moral choice is making citizen A hungrier so citizen B doesn't starve. Villainy is robbing citizen A to enrich citizen B becau…

As a single individual, it's probably more effective to work on local ethical issues than to try to do something about global villainy. There are a few people in very special places and times who have the ability to make a global effect (Wikileaks comes to mind), but that's quite rare. Yes, we can denounce villainy that occurs on the global stage. But in truth that's almost entirely virtue signaling. We look good, bu…

> But in truth that's almost entirely virtue signaling. We look good, but there's no difference effected in the world.

This isn't true at all. The collective fiction that makes up civilization depends on this.

Saying you believe in free speech, even though free speech is a national policy decision, is not virtue signalling if enough people do it. Saying you're against racism isn't virtue signalling if that makes the community as a whole more loudly against racism.

If everyone becomes cynical and refuses to "virtue signal" as you pejoratively call it, it swings the door wide open to the government ignoring our rights since the people have collectively already decided to give up.

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#76
> His record in Britain’s former colonies more closely resembles that of a war criminal

> Churchill has the blood of millions on his hands whom the British prefer to forget.

If only citations mattered to people.

> Churchill was one of the few British officials in favor of bombing Irish protesters from the air, suggesting using “machine gun fire bombs” to scatter them.

A thought without action. War gaming is common. You suggest a full range of ideas and only use the most sensible option.

> In fact he argued that poison gas was more humane than outright extermination: “The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum.”

Referring to tear gas. And they never used it! He was war gaming.

> Churchill was an open admirer of Mussolini, declaring that the Italian Fascist movement had “rendered a service to the whole world.”

That's called politics. Politicians have to flatter less than savory world leaders all the time.

> “the superiority of [the British] race” and that those who resisted would “be killed without quarter.” He wrote happily about how he and his comrades “systematically, village by village, destroyed the houses, filled up the wells, blew down the towers, cut down the great shady trees, burned the crops and broke the reservoirs in punitive devastation. Every tribesman caught was speared or cut down at once.”

He was a war correspondent -- a journalist. He has to say these things. Coverage of wars is always heavily censored and filled with propaganda.

> He fantasized luridly of having Mahatma Gandhi tied to the ground and trampled upon by elephants.

Gandhi was asking for Indian independence while Imperial Japan was invading Bengal. Not great timing! In Churchill's eyes, Gandhi was sabotaging the war effort and breaking up the empire that he loved so much. Churchill and Gandhi were political enemies. No doubt every one is guilty of wishing this on their opposition... Hell, there's a common fantasy of killing "baby" Hitler in America.

> Thanks to Churchill’s personal decisions, more than 3 million Bengalis died of hunger in a 1943 famine.

Ignoring the fact that Japan was attacking India through Bengal... Bengal is a casualty of war not a "personal decision" of a racist imperialist. The author conveniently ignores the fact that Churchill asked the US for food aid to end the famine... The US refused because it was not possible to provide aid. So Churchill ordered Australia to begin shipping food but Australia's capabilities to ship food were not great because of...you know WORLD WAR 2. Should Churchill have ceded India to Japan? Would Japanese occupation been better for Indians? Not in China's experience!

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#77

Meh. It's sad, but the structure of the universe is probably such that one cannot become a leader of millions without being a villain.

You can ignore any villainy by this formula. "All leaders are villains, so I'm turning my attention elsewhere." As Edmund Burke or someone said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Also, it relies on equating hard moral choices with villainy. A hard moral choice is making citizen A hungrier so citizen B doesn't starve. Villainy is robbing citizen A to enrich citizen B becau…

> You can ignore any villainy by this formula. "All leaders are villains, so I'm turning my attention elsewhere."

Perhaps it's more that those viewed as "good leaders" are simply the villains that were needed at that point in time. It's easy to villify almost anyone in retrospect, even if people at the time viewed those issues in much the same way.

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#78
Although the linked article by Tharoor only touches on the Indian connection, here's an article by Johann Hari that takes a broader view: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/not-his-fines... (“He may have been a thug, but he knew a greater thug when he saw one”) — interesting bit of trivia: “[Barack Obama's grandfather,] Hussein Onyango Obama, was imprisoned without trial for two years and was tortured on Churchill’s watch”.

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#79
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find most curious is that exactly one of the groups the Nazis systematically slaughtered went from being widely regarded as an acceptable target for racist degradation to being given a country, despite ~2,000 years of being treated as literally the servants of Satan, while the other groups the Nazis targeted only gradually gained equal rights. What’s up with that? I wish we could give every disadvantaged group…

This is perhaps most apparent with the Romani, who were targeted for extermination by the Nazis and are still hated today by a great many Europeans. It's always surprising to me how many Europeans chime in whenever this point is raised with "Well actually..." defenses for why their prejudice against Romani is justified.

This is from the Guardian, not some right wing newspaper:

"Most recently, postal workers said they were so frightened delivering in Eastwood after being mugged for their parcels that they no longer went out alone. “They are terrified because of the level of intimidation,’” said Champion. She went out on a round with two postal workers: “If I wasn’t with two post people, I would have been running away. I was really shocked how bad it was.”"

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/03/roma-tire-sh...

This is because of poverty, lack of schooling, a culture of mistrust of the outsider (on the Roma side too), etc. But it doesn't disappear if people close their eyes because they have some idea that all groups of people behave statistically the same.

Re: The Rest of Us Always Knew Churchill Was a Villain

#80
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the landlord's contribution is maintenance and matchmaking. The problem is that the fair economic value of maintenance and matchmaking, plus construction (labor, materials, design, oversight, etc.) when amortized monthly is far less than the average SF rent of 2-4 thousand dollars a month.

Isn't the problem in SF that the wages have gone up hugely for a small subset of the population? If that's the case, then the landlord is just following a standard negotiation tactic [1], since this is their livlihood. [1] https://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/dont-leave-mon...

> Isn't the problem in SF that the wages have gone up hugely for a small subset of the population?

Wages of the renting population is irrelevant to the 'fair economic price1' of an apartment. The equilibrium/fair cost of a latte doesn't go up because a few millionaires move into a neighborhood, it might go up because of a barista labor-shortage, a coffee bean-tariff, or other supply-side effect.

You're not wrong that the rent prices are being driven up because there is an influx of wealth to a subset, but the core problem is that the supply is artificially constrained. If you put a quota on lattes sold in our hypothetical neighborhood, only the rich will be able to drink them - and will pay 'rich people prices' to ensure they can (or if you prefer, Starbucks will maximize its profit in the latte constrained environment. Let Starbucks serve all the lattes it wants, and prices will stay more or less constant.

1 to be specific, the fair economic price is the breakeven + opportunity cost (profit!) to build an operate an apartment building, which can be amortized to a monthly rent per unit that would be required in order to make building the apartment worth while to the builder, architect, et al. In SF, and much of the Bay Area, monthly rents far exceed this value - which if SF was a functioning market would drive the construction of more apartments driving rents down towards their fair economic price.

Post reply on HN