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Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

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Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Competing on tax rates that apply equally to everyone is not the same as selling exceptional treatment to the rich alone. That undermines the rule of law in favor of the rule of wealth. It is institutional bribery.

Most of the tax breaks Amazon was going to get are, in fact, offered to all businesses. The reporting on this has been absolutely awful (as most journalism is).

> Most of the tax breaks Amazon was going to get are, in fact, offered to all businesses.

And some weren't. Which proponents seem to conveniently ignore...

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#202

I don't understand how amazon itself would create such a wealth imbalance among people. There are already so many big corporations that pay handsomely for those who work in Newyork city and the cost of living is same as SF or Seattle.

1. Straight off the bat, you're giving a gigantic subsidy to the largest retailer of the world, whose CTO is the richest man in the world. That's coming out of taxes paid by normal people. If that's not obviously increasing wealth imbalance I don't know how to make it any clearer. The other companies who pay for those who work in NYC do so without creating a gigantic competition to see what city will give them the mo…

That's coming out of taxes paid by normal people.

No it's not. If Amazon doesn't come the city/state collects zero tax.

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#203

Agree with the article. The economists can argue all day about how the equation will work out to be a net profit to NYC regardless of subsidies, but that seems short-sighted. Every decision can not be reduced to a profit/loss question. One company should not have bargaining power over an entire city, and they certainly should not get special economic treatment over others. It points to and perpetuates an unhealthy po…

> One company should not have bargaining power over an entire city, and they certainly should not get special economic treatment over others.

Depends on which city. NYC is an established city, with unique value proposition over the globe. I actually don't think losing Amazon would be a big problem for it overall, for certain region maybe, despite the drama. But that can't be said for any other city in US.

And you and I all know people get discounts when they buy in the same stuff for a larger amount. I see no difference in this case.

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#204
New York didn't lose anything by not having Amazon here. New York is a city built on diversity, and ensuring resources are available to maintain that diversity is important to the citizens. It's a matter of giving one huge handout to the most valuable company in the world that will destroy a community and drive up wages (bad for small businesses) and housing costs (bad for Queens), versus giving $5M to 100 small businesses who can create jobs and maintain diversity while keeping wages / housing in check. That not to mention, there are other infrastructural things in NYC that need attention / money. People here want money going back into the soul of the city, not to an outsider traipsing around to various cities looking for who will give the biggest handout. Amazon's big misstep here is that they acted like they were a gift to NYC, and didn't sell the dream of what value they'd bring to the city. New Yorkers will immediately tell people to fuck off with that approach.

Amazon's other missed opportunity is not intentionally choosing a smaller city like Austin or Denver, which would not only have amazing talent, schools, transportation, and culture, but would be far less costly. They would save more money in the long run and achieve the same results. But that's beside the point.

New York doesn't need Amazon, and I'm glad Amazon caved when the people pushed back. It shows that Amazon never cared about the people here and would bring nothing to the community.

edit: If you're going to downvote please comment why you disagree.

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#206
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep hearing about Amazon getting "special treatment", but is that really true? https://www.marketwatch.com/story/what-amazons-hq2-means-for... > For the Long Island City location, Amazon was going to receive $1.2 billion in refundable tax credits through New York State’s Excelsior Jobs Program if the company created 25,000 net new jobs in New York State by the end of June 2028. > New York State had also promised a…

It doesn't matter how much money Amazon got as it's the perception of the fact they are getting a tax break which is why it's shocking. Amazon isn't some two-bit startup which has no VC funding. It's the richest company in the world so why the heck do New Yorkers need to hand over their cash to bring them the Queens?

> Amazon isn't some two-bit startup which has no VC funding

So Amazon is at lower risk of bankruptcy and a higher credibility of eventual return of those investments?

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#207
post #193

> The livability crisis that’s currently afflicting Seattle and San Francisco is evidence of how cities need to be careful what they wish for when it comes to the explosive growth of technology companies (and the attendant wealth that comes with it) in their metropolises. Let me get this straight, New Yorkers should view Seattle and SF as cautionary tales for what happens when high-paying jobs arrive in a metropolita…

> SF's issues aren't caused by swanky new jobs, they're caused by NIMBY politics. What are Seattle's issues, caused by, then? Because if you look at the Seattle city skyline, you'll find it absolutely covered in cranes. This town of 700,000 people, in a state of 7 million people, has more active cranes then any other city in North America. It's a construction free-for-all here. And I consider that a good thing - but…

Rents have been doing better over the while haven't they?

Still have a massive shortage of housing to buy. :/

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#208

Agree with the article. The economists can argue all day about how the equation will work out to be a net profit to NYC regardless of subsidies, but that seems short-sighted. Every decision can not be reduced to a profit/loss question. One company should not have bargaining power over an entire city, and they certainly should not get special economic treatment over others. It points to and perpetuates an unhealthy po…

The thing is the subsidy was only 10% of the expected tax revenue and only $500mm was exclusive to Amazon (mostly in the form of property rights). The rest is available to anyone who sets up shop outside of Manhattan. As far as tax breaks go it’s fairly minuscule. But because of poor numeracy and a poor understanding of the conditions of the break or the nature of tax deductions, a lot of people had sticker shock at…

> was only 10% of the expected tax revenue

That's 10% too much.

> But because of poor numeracy and a poor understanding of the conditions of the break or the nature of tax deductions, a lot of people had sticker shock at the $3b number.

Or people understand and are still outraged at the giveaway to a trillion dollar company.

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is the subsidy was only 10% of the expected tax revenue and only $500mm was exclusive to Amazon (mostly in the form of property rights). The rest is available to anyone who sets up shop outside of Manhattan. As far as tax breaks go it’s fairly minuscule. But because of poor numeracy and a poor understanding of the conditions of the break or the nature of tax deductions, a lot of people had sticker shock at…

Some people misunderstood that the $3B was a credit, not real cash being gifted to Amazon. But even among people who understand the nature of a tax credit, we felt that NYC should not forego revenue that another company would have to pay. In other words, the city has enough bargaining power to collect all the taxes that it would be owed. Amazon can flounce and run off to Virginia or Nashville or wherever, but NYC wil…

> Some people misunderstood that the $3B was a credit, not real cash being gifted to Amazon.

If the government gives me a 25k deduction on my taxes, does that not end up as money in my pocket?

I don't understand why this is different for Amazon? How is being able to do business without paying the associated taxes not a giveaway?

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#210
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $500M exceptional credit was the issue. That’s a lot of money.

No one opposing Amazon actually pieced out that portion of it as their reason for opposing it. Be honest. If the $500mm is the real beef with the whole thing then break it down vs jobs: $50mm/yr vs 25,000 jobs paying an average of $150k/yr for a total of $3.75bn of taxable income. At New York State's lowest tax bracket of 4%, that's $150mm. At New York State's highest tax bracket of 8.84%, that's over $330mm.

> then break it down vs jobs

No.

No giveaways like this. None. Zero. If Amazon wants welfare for jobs, then tell them to screw off and let another company come in that will employ people without handouts.

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