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Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

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Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#61

Post by mcphage »

whatok wrote: post #56
whack wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep hearing about Amazon getting "special treatment", but is that really true? https://www.marketwatch.com/story/what-amazons-hq2-means-for... > For the Long Island City location, Amazon was going to receive $1.2 billion in refundable tax credits through New York State’s Excelsior Jobs Program if the company created 25,000 net new jobs in New York State by the end of June 2028. > New York State had also promised a…

It's really sad that this point has been lost in all of this. Somehow existing programs got spun into the city/state hand delivering a $3bn check to Bezos. Really sad.

Because if not for Bezos, those funds would have gone to other companies—some of which might have actually needed them, and weren’t just using their clout to try and get free cash while floating on billions in profit.

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#62

Post by mcphage »

whatok wrote: post #53
minikites wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe Amazon's extortion would have stopped at the first $3 billion and they would have happily paid taxes in full after that? http://fortune.com/2019/02/14/amazon-doesnt-pay-federal-taxe...

Who is Amazon extorting in either of these cases? If you have a problem with Amazon following the federal tax code that's existed longer than they have, perhaps you should take it up with your congressional reps.

The point isn’t whether Amazon should or shouldn’t be paying a Federal taxes, it’s whether—given this prior behavior—we would expect them to pay state or city taxes, instead of finding or creating a loophole to get out of them.

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#63

Post by sys_64738 »

New Yorkers are sick and tired of mega corps getting tax breaks to fiddle the tax system while their infrastructure suffers even more. Perhaps if Amazon contributed the $5b they would 'save' on NYGC subway improvements then the people would be more favorable to them being in LIC. But, nadda.

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#64

Post by mcphage »

KevinEldon wrote: post #19
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #5

Agree with the article. The economists can argue all day about how the equation will work out to be a net profit to NYC regardless of subsidies, but that seems short-sighted. Every decision can not be reduced to a profit/loss question. One company should not have bargaining power over an entire city, and they certainly should not get special economic treatment over others. It points to and perpetuates an unhealthy po…

NY made the offer to Amazon. If citizens of NY don't want their government to be able to bargain with a business or organization on an individual level then they should take that power away from government.

> If citizens of NY don't want their government to be able to bargain with a business or organization on an individual level

The people clearly don’t want to give NY that power carte blanche. They want oversight to that power—oversight which they just exercised.

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#65

Post by sys_64738 »

whack wrote: post #54
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #5

Agree with the article. The economists can argue all day about how the equation will work out to be a net profit to NYC regardless of subsidies, but that seems short-sighted. Every decision can not be reduced to a profit/loss question. One company should not have bargaining power over an entire city, and they certainly should not get special economic treatment over others. It points to and perpetuates an unhealthy po…

I keep hearing about Amazon getting "special treatment", but is that really true? https://www.marketwatch.com/story/what-amazons-hq2-means-for... > For the Long Island City location, Amazon was going to receive $1.2 billion in refundable tax credits through New York State’s Excelsior Jobs Program if the company created 25,000 net new jobs in New York State by the end of June 2028. > New York State had also promised a…

It doesn't matter how much money Amazon got as it's the perception of the fact they are getting a tax break which is why it's shocking. Amazon isn't some two-bit startup which has no VC funding. It's the richest company in the world so why the heck do New Yorkers need to hand over their cash to bring them the Queens?

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#66

Post by vixen99 »

sys_64738 wrote: post #65
whack wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep hearing about Amazon getting "special treatment", but is that really true? https://www.marketwatch.com/story/what-amazons-hq2-means-for... > For the Long Island City location, Amazon was going to receive $1.2 billion in refundable tax credits through New York State’s Excelsior Jobs Program if the company created 25,000 net new jobs in New York State by the end of June 2028. > New York State had also promised a…

It doesn't matter how much money Amazon got as it's the perception of the fact they are getting a tax break which is why it's shocking. Amazon isn't some two-bit startup which has no VC funding. It's the richest company in the world so why the heck do New Yorkers need to hand over their cash to bring them the Queens?

“It is a dark day when small retailers in NYC are denied the opportunity to pay the expenses of their largest competitor.”

https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#67

Post by whack »

sys_64738 wrote: post #65
whack wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep hearing about Amazon getting "special treatment", but is that really true? https://www.marketwatch.com/story/what-amazons-hq2-means-for... > For the Long Island City location, Amazon was going to receive $1.2 billion in refundable tax credits through New York State’s Excelsior Jobs Program if the company created 25,000 net new jobs in New York State by the end of June 2028. > New York State had also promised a…

It doesn't matter how much money Amazon got as it's the perception of the fact they are getting a tax break which is why it's shocking. Amazon isn't some two-bit startup which has no VC funding. It's the richest company in the world so why the heck do New Yorkers need to hand over their cash to bring them the Queens?

For the same reason you hand over your cash in order to buy stuff on amazon.com or run things on AWS. Not because Amazon deserves your money, but because it's in your own best interests to do so.

Since you seem so opposed to tax breaks for big corporations, have you also lobbied for repealing the Excelsior and REAP programs? Or do you get upset only when these programs are applied to Amazon?

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#68

Post by secfirstmd »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #17
matt4077 wrote: post #12

This really isn’t about New York. The problem is the race-to-the-bottom communities engage in when heaping tax subsidies on companies that would create jobs no matter what. For public finance, it is one of the purest examples of a prisoner’s dilemma one could think of. And just as in that thought experiment, it is entirely obvious how to get to an outcome that is better for everyone: cooperation. Other economies have…

MMM yes not sure I believe you Ireland succeeded because it had an educated English language work force who would prefer to go to England to work. Plus massive tax subsidies' that screwed over their eu partners whist still collecting eu investment as a depressed area.

I'm Irish and I hate to say it but it's hard not to agree that we wouldn't be in a much worse state if we hadn't become a de facto tax haven for companies entering the EU. Yes we do have a well educated, English speaking, flexible and fun workforce but let's be real, most of the companies wouldn't be here (at least initially) if it wasn't for tax.

While it's mostly positive, the presence of big multinationals also causes problems. For one, most of them are doing marketing, services etc rather than development. This means they are more flexible to move elsewhere.

Also, they are a brain drain from local enterprises. Irish people seem to have this ingrained thing whereby they prefer to stay at a big company rather than move. It means we haven't seen the positive spin-outs that we should have when so many big companies are in the country for so long. I can't think of a billion dollar sized company that has been built here in Ireland in the tech sector. Even Stripe had to go abroad.

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#69

Post by whack »

mcphage wrote: post #61
whatok wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really sad that this point has been lost in all of this. Somehow existing programs got spun into the city/state hand delivering a $3bn check to Bezos. Really sad.

Because if not for Bezos, those funds would have gone to other companies—some of which might have actually needed them, and weren’t just using their clout to try and get free cash while floating on billions in profit.

So now we're going to blame Bezos for using a incentive-program the way it was expressly meant to be used? Perhaps we should also start shaming white collar professionals who take advantage of 401k plans and Mortgage Interest deductions. If they didn't try to reduce their tax bill, that money could have gone to others who actually needed them.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Re: Did New York Lose Anything with Amazon’s Rejection? It’s Complicated

#70

Post by whatok »

mcphage wrote: post #62
whatok wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is Amazon extorting in either of these cases? If you have a problem with Amazon following the federal tax code that's existed longer than they have, perhaps you should take it up with your congressional reps.

The point isn’t whether Amazon should or shouldn’t be paying a Federal taxes, it’s whether—given this prior behavior—we would expect them to pay state or city taxes, instead of finding or creating a loophole to get out of them.

There are a lot of large businesses headquartered in New York. They all seem to be pretty smart. If there are widespread tax loopholes out there, others surely have taken advantage of them by now. If they had, you would see outrage articles on that as well.
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