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Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#891

Post by seanp2k2 »

BurningFrog wrote: post #862
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #842

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm of two minds on this issue, but: how can the city have good mass transit if there are no tax dollars to pay for it?

One factor is that NY pays 5-10 times more than comparable cities to build its mass transit: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-...

and in return for all that money, they receive the sewage waterfall: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/05/penn-stations-latest-...

Honestly, why is this so hard when so much of the rest of the developed world manages to do it so well?

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#892

Post by lkrubner »

MockObject wrote: post #684
waisbrot wrote: post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you explain this some more? Are you suggesting that governments establish a target figure and adjust that year's tax policy to make sure it's met? They are just suggesting that the site that Amazon would have occupied will be rented by some other business. Probably, that business will not have gotten all the tax-breaks that Amazon did. Therefore, the tax collected by NYC on that space will be larger with Amazon…

The alternate businesses may not provide the same density of profit as Amazon, so their total tax outlay might be much lower over time. (One must factor in the other taxes paid by the Amazon employees as well.) Also, pretty crappy to get downvoted for an honest question.

I suspect you were downvoted for the line "The existence of budget deficits suggests otherwise."

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#893

Post by samstave »

peteretep wrote: post #879
samstave wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am announcing an exploratory committee on whether or not I may or may not Apply for YCS19 - I wont tell you if I will apply or not - or how much money my [stealth] startup-unicorn will attempt to raise for an innovative and world-changing product we have yet to decide on seeking a co-founder for. But I am telling you now that I am planning on letting you know, at the end of this quarter - or maybe next month or who…

> #YCFundMeToo YC Fund "Me Too" -- I think you might want to let PR and HR take a look at this before you move forward with this name.

$ThatsTheJoke.bin

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#894

Post by mancerayder »

cletus wrote: post #330

So this was (IMHO) a shit show from go to whoa. The dog and pony show was a transparent shakedown where Amazon would still probably go where they were always going to go. The whole splitting HQ2 I think showed this. Like it's not even an "HQ" in any sense of the word. It's just an expansion. Also with talk of "25k jobs"... what jobs? Are we talking software engineers or warehouse workers? There's a difference. I don'…

NYS grossly favours SFHs for property taxes. For example, a $3m brownstone in Park Slope I saw had ~$700/month in property taxes. A similarly priced apartment would have more like $1500-2000/month taxes. A $100m apartment would be taxed at ~$15k/month.

The Park Slope home you had was probably newly renovated. That matters - the sale price doesn't. 700 is even a lot, relatively speaking. In any case, houses from the 19th century cost money to maintain, and sometimes, shockingly, they're populated by people who can't afford 1k a month in property tax. The property values went up high and fast - are we going to punish homeowners for that? This isn't a suburb where taxes must come primarily from property tax - there's a NYC-specific income tax, as you're probably well aware.

Then, here's something else, tax those 2,3,4-families more, rents will go up as a result; they're free-market rate apartments, not rent stabilized.

I don't know what any of this has to do with Amazon, though.

NYC has on several occasions tried to introduce congestion pricing on people driving in or into Manhattan (something I 100% support) but the efforts have failed as this is the jurisdiction of NYS and NYS has no interest in this (so far).

They introduced it - it just impacts taxis and for-hire vehicles.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#895

Post by codyb »

Good riddance.

It irks me to no end that our system is set up to reward the largest and the wealthiest.

NYC should have prepared a package for Amazon and said "this is what we'll guarantee in breaks to small business owners if you come here".

I didn't even think it was a particularly bad deal all things considered, I just hate the idea.

Meanwhile, half of NYC and the country is wondering what NYC will do without 25,000 jobs. Or before that, wondering how the housing market could possibly bear it.

25,000 people, a ton of whom were already living in NYC (thats why they wanted to come) was going to be barely a ripple.

The whole thing was a sham. People were way overstating the affect it'd have, and NYC needs better subways, not more tech jobs (or both in conjunction).

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#896

Post by mancerayder »

robterrin wrote: post #480
cletus wrote: post #330

So this was (IMHO) a shit show from go to whoa. The dog and pony show was a transparent shakedown where Amazon would still probably go where they were always going to go. The whole splitting HQ2 I think showed this. Like it's not even an "HQ" in any sense of the word. It's just an expansion. Also with talk of "25k jobs"... what jobs? Are we talking software engineers or warehouse workers? There's a difference. I don'…

Best comment on the thread so far. Property tax reform could work for single family homes if we decoupled property tax from land tax. NYS should only raise taxes on the value of land given the surrounding population density, natural properties and accessibility to public infrastructure. Check out some Henry George, if you're interested in learning more.

I didn't read Henry George, whoever that is, I'm reading you right now. Are you suggesting to tax a single family home the same as a six, if they take up the same amount of space?

What happens if someone has owned the home for 60 years, they're older and retired, and suddenly it so happens their neighborhood got popular a decade ago and their property values doubled, and some rezoning happened at a nearby avenue. That's one example. How about we try the academic flirtations with tax experiments at a smaller scale elsewhere, first?

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#897

Post by samstave »

codyb wrote: post #895

Good riddance. It irks me to no end that our system is set up to reward the largest and the wealthiest. NYC should have prepared a package for Amazon and said "this is what we'll guarantee in breaks to small business owners if you come here". I didn't even think it was a particularly bad deal all things considered, I just hate the idea. Meanwhile, half of NYC and the country is wondering what NYC will do without 25,0…

NYC has 38,500 police officers.

I could give a shit about 25,000 potential AWS employees.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#898

Post by codyb »

bko wrote: post #808
siruncledrew wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon's spectacle reminds me of Lebron's "The Decision". It's one thing to work out the details and make an announcement, but to purposefully turn it into a show about "What can you do for me?" instead of "Here's what I can do for you" made it not sit well with people. Also, the pull-out letter also basically dumps the blame on state/local officials for not wanting Amazon, despite not all stakeholders being present…

I don't see it as a "what can you do for me". A lot of Amazon's interest were aligned with that of many New Yorkers. Both Amazon and most New Yorkers want to have a strong transportation system and a diverse economy that doesn't just rely on taxing bloated financial bonuses to pay for services. They also want New York to be an in-demand tech hub with a deep labor pool and be a place where people actually want to live…

What?

If Amazon wanted a strong transportation system they could have demanded some of their tax break went towards that. They did not.

NYC is already the second largest tech hub in the nation, as well as a global leader in a wide variety of industries.

If anything, Amazon moving in, and this I doubt, would have made it less affordable than it already was to live here.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#899

Post by jupp0r »

nihonde wrote: post #823
stvswn wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big ticket? Of the abatements, only $500M (the portion related to construction) wasn't available to any business that met the state's requirements. Giveaway? These are tax incentives that are part of the state's tax code -- taking less in taxes to incentivize a particular action is not the same as giving away money that could be spent elsewhere (to illustrate why it isn't the same, that money is not currently availab…

Of all the crummy talking points defending Amazon in this situation, the most odious is the idea that regular working New Yorkers lost an opportunity to get good jobs and upgrade their livelihoods. Amazon has an established record of being terrible to its workforce, and any fool knows that the workers in Amazon HQ2 aren’t going to be regular joes in Queens. At best, ordinary New Yorkers had a shot at serving HQ2 exec…

Those 25000 workers would have paid income taxes and property taxes.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#900

Post by null000 »

vonmoltke wrote: post #470
weliketocode wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their dog and pony show almost netted them $3bn. That type of payday might be worth a bit of scrutiny.

No it didn't. The vast majority of those incentives were on the table for Amazon, or anyone else, without the theatrics.

Oh, sorry, it was "only" 1/2 a billion that was specially on the table for Amazon (if up thread comments are to be trusted)

That's not peanuts.

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