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Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#581

Post by MockObject »

lkrubner wrote: post #528
koheripbal wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "tax break" is just a reduction in taxes that otherwise wouldn't be paid at all . It still means a profit for the city. It's not like NYC is paying Amazon to come to NYC. NYC would still make huge tax revenues from additional sales, real estate, income taxes, and corporate taxes. Now they're turning that all away. It's such an irrational decision that if I were Amazon, it would raise a big red flag for me as well.…

This is incorrect: " that otherwise wouldn't be paid at all " The opposite is true, 100% of those taxes will be paid by some other business. Maybe you could make your argument about the New York City of the 1970s, but you sure as heck can not make that argument about the New York City of 2019. New York City is not starving for investment, rather, its biggest challenge nowadays is managing its fast growth. Other busin…

> The opposite is true, 100% of those taxes will be paid by some other business.

Can you explain this some more? Are you suggesting that governments establish a target figure and adjust that year's tax policy to make sure it's met?

The existence of budget deficits suggests otherwise.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#582

Post by TheOperator »

koheripbal wrote: post #488
tytso wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposition is not because some high tech firm, whether it is Google or Amazon, is expanding in NYC. The opposition is because of the Massive tax breaks and other $$$ giveaways New York was going to hand over to Amazon. I don't recall Google extorting NYC for $$$ before they decided to expand....

A "tax break" is just a reduction in taxes that otherwise wouldn't be paid at all . It still means a profit for the city. It's not like NYC is paying Amazon to come to NYC. NYC would still make huge tax revenues from additional sales, real estate, income taxes, and corporate taxes. Now they're turning that all away. It's such an irrational decision that if I were Amazon, it would raise a big red flag for me as well.…

Sure but the fact is when your mom and pop business is going to pay a higher effective tax rate than Amazon you're effectively subsidizing one of the largest and most powerful companies in the world. You're not attracting amazon by slashing taxes across the board you're giving one company a sweetheart deal. Which is simultaniously at odds ideologically with both libertarian and progressive thought. From a Libertarian perspective you can see the state as shaking down all of Amazons competitors to pay for building Amazon's infrastructure, training Amazons employees, and enforcement of Amazon's monopolies on IP. This is perverse.

The US and NYC specifically is approaching historic levels of inequality. If you want to reverse that you have to say no to giving one of the most powerful companies in the world a sweetheart tax deal. If NYC doesn't say no then who will? The scuttling of this plan doesn't reflect a lack of rationality. It reflects different priorities than you have. The more powerful Amazon gets thanks to these sweetheart deals the more leverage they will have and that can mean negative consequences for the populace.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#583

Post by hopler »

fjp wrote: post #567
raiyu wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but they will get that tax break regardless at least this we can continue to make NYC a powerhouse tech center. And it's in Long island City not in Manhattan like Facebook and Google.

Wouldn't you rather existing NYC residents build new companies to make it a tech center? You're just letting the giant school bully take over your neighborhood for below market value (due to the massive tax breaks) and declaring "Look! We're a tech center!"

Why don't you think existing NYC residents would want to work at Amazon?

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#584

Post by atoav »

bko wrote: post #554
zelias wrote: post #55

If Amazon had just quietly announced plans to expand to LIC without the "HQ2 Search" dog and pony show they almost certainly would still be here. Google buys entire city blocks and nobody bats an eye. Turns out that publicly shaking down cities across the US tends to draw out the opposition. More publicity = more scrutiny = more angry opponents of your business decision

Most new Yorkers supported the project even when told about the subsidies. It's a vocal minority that sank the project https://www.wsj.com/articles/majority-of-new-yorkers-support...

It is always vocal minoirities who do things, even with very popular topics.

Animal cruelty? There is only a vocal minority who takes a public stance, despite this beeing a very clear cut issue in terms of public opinion. Migration is the other way round: most people don't give a fuck, but have a loud vocal base that will even hurt themselves to make a point and you will be heard.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#585

Post by sammycdubs »

jcranberry wrote: post #565
bko wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most new Yorkers supported the project even when told about the subsidies. It's a vocal minority that sank the project https://www.wsj.com/articles/majority-of-new-yorkers-support...

How about New Yorkers who lived in Queens?

I live in LIC and I've not met anyone who supported it, especially the $3BN of incentives.

No wonder Gianaris, who represents our district in the NY Senate, was such a strong opponent.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#586

Post by skookumchuck »

trhway wrote: post #511
koheripbal wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "tax break" is just a reduction in taxes that otherwise wouldn't be paid at all . It still means a profit for the city. It's not like NYC is paying Amazon to come to NYC. NYC would still make huge tax revenues from additional sales, real estate, income taxes, and corporate taxes. Now they're turning that all away. It's such an irrational decision that if I were Amazon, it would raise a big red flag for me as well.…

>taxes that otherwise wouldn't be paid at all. That is fallacy of excluded other possibilities. Especially for a place like NYC. I generally like AMZN, nevertheless I'm happy just on sheer principle that the bullying behavior by the 800lb gorilla didnt succeed this time.

It isn't any more "bullying" than you shopping various car dealerships to get the best deal on a new car.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#587

Post by dandersh »

siruncledrew wrote: post #207
zelias wrote: post #55

If Amazon had just quietly announced plans to expand to LIC without the "HQ2 Search" dog and pony show they almost certainly would still be here. Google buys entire city blocks and nobody bats an eye. Turns out that publicly shaking down cities across the US tends to draw out the opposition. More publicity = more scrutiny = more angry opponents of your business decision

Amazon's spectacle reminds me of Lebron's "The Decision". It's one thing to work out the details and make an announcement, but to purposefully turn it into a show about "What can you do for me?" instead of "Here's what I can do for you" made it not sit well with people. Also, the pull-out letter also basically dumps the blame on state/local officials for not wanting Amazon, despite not all stakeholders being present…

This is a poor analogy for multiple reasons:

1. Basketball is entertainment, and 'The Decision' was the result of years of speculation by the fans and the media. Furthermore you see similar spectacles for such things as National Signing Day, where top recruits hold press conferences to announce what college they are attending.

2. There is animosity and jealousy towards 'entitled millionaire athletes' that was made worse with players being able to control their own destiny instead of suffering under terrible management. "If they get to choose where to work and do so with their friends, why can't I" yells Joe Six-Pack.

3. The super team. Somehow NBA fans forgot or were ignorant of how absolutely stacked championship teams had been throughout history, featuring multiple hall of fame players and coaches. Elements of #2 play into this as well where it is management, not players, that should build championship teams.

4. A player like LBJ is far, far more likely to deliver (which he did with multiple championships) in the NBA than a company like Amazon is to deliver a value worth the taxpayer dollars they absorb.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#588

Post by will_brown »

jfnixon wrote: post #534
mav3rick wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LeBron's Decision 1 was a lot of money for him. He had the talent to back that up.

And the company that owns vast swaths of cloud computing space doesn't have talent to back it up? Amazon is way more dominant than LeBron in their respective businesses.

I don’t know about having more talent, but amazon definitely has more ego...At least LeBron didn’t demand special tax deals and non-public data from cities to bring his talents.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#589

Post by tom-_- »

zelias wrote: post #55

If Amazon had just quietly announced plans to expand to LIC without the "HQ2 Search" dog and pony show they almost certainly would still be here. Google buys entire city blocks and nobody bats an eye. Turns out that publicly shaking down cities across the US tends to draw out the opposition. More publicity = more scrutiny = more angry opponents of your business decision

But because the dog and pony show draws more public scrutiny, is that not a better, more transparent process for the tax payers vs the norm of corporations "quietly" making deals with city governments?

If Amazon required all bids and contracts be made public AND brought in the media circus to invite scrutiny that would seem to be the most in the public interest.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#590

Post by buboard »

lkrubner wrote: post #528
koheripbal wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "tax break" is just a reduction in taxes that otherwise wouldn't be paid at all . It still means a profit for the city. It's not like NYC is paying Amazon to come to NYC. NYC would still make huge tax revenues from additional sales, real estate, income taxes, and corporate taxes. Now they're turning that all away. It's such an irrational decision that if I were Amazon, it would raise a big red flag for me as well.…

This is incorrect: " that otherwise wouldn't be paid at all " The opposite is true, 100% of those taxes will be paid by some other business. Maybe you could make your argument about the New York City of the 1970s, but you sure as heck can not make that argument about the New York City of 2019. New York City is not starving for investment, rather, its biggest challenge nowadays is managing its fast growth. Other busin…

how many thousands of businesses will have to move there to make up for the taxable revenue that an amazon HQ would register?
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