Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#511

Post by trhway » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #488

tytso wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposition is not because some high tech firm, whether it is Google or Amazon, is expanding in NYC. The opposition is because of the Massive tax breaks and other $$$ giveaways New York was going to hand over to Amazon. I don't recall Google extorting NYC for $$$ before they decided to expand....

A "tax break" is just a reduction in taxes that otherwise wouldn't be paid at all . It still means a profit for the city. It's not like NYC is paying Amazon to come to NYC. NYC would still make huge tax revenues from additional sales, real estate, income taxes, and corporate taxes. Now they're turning that all away. It's such an irrational decision that if I were Amazon, it would raise a big red flag for me as well.…

>taxes that otherwise wouldn't be paid at all.

That is fallacy of excluded other possibilities. Especially for a place like NYC.

I generally like AMZN, nevertheless I'm happy just on sheer principle that the bullying behavior by the 800lb gorilla didnt succeed this time.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#512

Post by jamiek88 » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #494

driverdan wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google buys entire city blocks and nobody bats an eye. Was it highly subsidized by taxpayers like Amazon's purchase would have been?

Tax breaks are just a temporary discount on taxes that otherwise would be paid at all. It's not like Amazon was getting CASH to move to NYC.

That’s assuming that space would be left empty. Which in NYC is unlikely.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#513

Post by youdontknowtho » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

jemfinch wrote: post #456

munificent wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah but they will get that tax break regardless I just don't understand this argument. It's like "Someone's gonna get fucked, so I'd prefer it be me." That tax break is real money . Money that your community will not be able to spend on education, infrastructure, police, parks, all the things that make a place worth living in. Why would you hand that over to a company that doesn't need it?

> That tax break is real money . Sure, but it's real money that your community doesn't get either way . You're living in a fantasy world if you believe that the choice was legitimately between "Tax money and 25,000 jobs" or "No tax money and 25,000 jobs." No, the choice has always been between "No tax money and 25,000 jobs" or "No tax money and no jobs." You're not getting the tax money either way. Either Amazon buil…

That's one way to look at it.

Another way would be that only taxing the jobs, and all the economic activity they might generate would still not cover the strain that the company would put on the local system.

Now they need to start taxing Wall St. heavily.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#514

Post by bogomipz » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #306

jhall1468 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's absolutely no way they are scaling up NY to the same degree they would have with the subsidies. There's no reason to. The value proposition is gone, so now Amazon will slow-roll growth in NY like they will any other office. The fact that you (and many others) consider this a win is an attempt to revise history. This tax deal was all about Amazon expanding very quickly. That deal is gone. But feel free to pat…

> This tax deal was all about Amazon expanding very quickly. Anybody who thinks that through should see why it's such a terrible idea. Not even NY can "very quickly" absorb 25k people in a small area without screwing up quality of life for the people who already live there. That's a great way to make real estate prices sky rocket and screw over the existing residents. And it'll completely screw up infrastructure and…

But it was never going to be "quickly." See:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-the-amazon-invasion-in-new-...

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#515

Post by saemil » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 7:33 PM UTC

wgerard wrote: post #424

RPLong wrote: post #223

I guess I didn't realize how many commentators here were New Yorkers. XD Everyone's moving to more comfortable places with lower costs of living. NYC is not an attractive place for job candidates unless those candidates are already in NYC. Even companies with a strong presence in NYC are expanding in places like Nashville, Omaha, Dallas, Denver, etc. rather than in NYC. At some point, New Yorkers ought to ask themsel…

> At some point, New Yorkers ought to ask themselves why everyone wants to move to these nice midwestern cities. Not sure why you chose the midwest as a qualifier here - out of all the cities you listed, only Omaha would be considered a midwestern city. Out of the 15 fastest growing cities according to the Census, almost none of them are in the midwest [1] (Only one really: Columbus). Admittedly it's over a short tim…

Columbus is considered the midwest? It is North and EAST of Nashville.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#516

Post by SolarNet » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 7:33 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #465

r_smart wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they probably did. It was just behind closed doors rather than publicized.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure any such tax breaks would have to be public data by now, even if they were originally hashed out behind closed doors. If you're implying that Google got tax breaks, and no one noticed the public data confirming these tax breaks, please provide evidence of the data that has been overlooked.

> would have to be public data by now

Show me the public data source where I could conceivably find that out and I'll do "please provide evidence of the data that has been overlooked". Because I don't think that data source exists.

I don't think you realize how opaque tax records are in many places. You seem to be implying that there is a way for the public - or even journalists - to acquire the tax and assessment information of individual companies. Attempting to do so is considered fraud in most jurisdictions (e.g. attempting to use a FOIA request for the personal information - including tax records - of someone else or a business of which you are not an officer).

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#517

Post by pvg » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 7:33 PM UTC

siruncledrew wrote: post #207

zelias wrote: post #55

If Amazon had just quietly announced plans to expand to LIC without the "HQ2 Search" dog and pony show they almost certainly would still be here. Google buys entire city blocks and nobody bats an eye. Turns out that publicly shaking down cities across the US tends to draw out the opposition. More publicity = more scrutiny = more angry opponents of your business decision

Amazon's spectacle reminds me of Lebron's "The Decision". It's one thing to work out the details and make an announcement, but to purposefully turn it into a show about "What can you do for me?" instead of "Here's what I can do for you" made it not sit well with people. Also, the pull-out letter also basically dumps the blame on state/local officials for not wanting Amazon, despite not all stakeholders being present…

but to purposefully turn it into a show

A big difference is that contrived drama is at the very core of the entertainment business of professional sports. It makes for much of the entertainment! It's less helpful in the more mundane enterprise of 'building a bunch of offices and warehouses'.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#518

Post by youdontknowtho » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 7:33 PM UTC

nova22033 wrote: post #491

munificent wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah but they will get that tax break regardless I just don't understand this argument. It's like "Someone's gonna get fucked, so I'd prefer it be me." That tax break is real money . Money that your community will not be able to spend on education, infrastructure, police, parks, all the things that make a place worth living in. Why would you hand that over to a company that doesn't need it?

>That tax break is real money. Money that your community will not be able to spend on education, infrastructure, police, parks, You run a store. You put up a sign offering a 50% discount. I walk in the store and you tell me there is no discount. I walk out. Guess what? You didn't get any money and I didn't get anything out of the deal. Amazon backing out of HQ2 doesn't mean you get to keep the money. You never had th…

What if you came in and bought something at a discount and then took way more than you payed for...

That's more like what they were going to do.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#519

Post by eanzenberg » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 7:34 PM UTC

lenzm wrote: post #510

koheripbal wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "tax break" is just a reduction in taxes that otherwise wouldn't be paid at all . It still means a profit for the city. It's not like NYC is paying Amazon to come to NYC. NYC would still make huge tax revenues from additional sales, real estate, income taxes, and corporate taxes. Now they're turning that all away. It's such an irrational decision that if I were Amazon, it would raise a big red flag for me as well.…

It certainly means revenue for the city but we don't know that it means profit. All of those people are going to generate trash, take the subway and consume city services. Why shouldn't Amazon pay like everyone else?

That's literally paid by those employee taxes? Unless you'd rather more homeless and drug addicts move in, which it seems is what NYC local politicians wanted.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#520

Post by jakelazaroff » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 7:34 PM UTC

jemfinch wrote: post #456

munificent wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah but they will get that tax break regardless I just don't understand this argument. It's like "Someone's gonna get fucked, so I'd prefer it be me." That tax break is real money . Money that your community will not be able to spend on education, infrastructure, police, parks, all the things that make a place worth living in. Why would you hand that over to a company that doesn't need it?

> That tax break is real money . Sure, but it's real money that your community doesn't get either way . You're living in a fantasy world if you believe that the choice was legitimately between "Tax money and 25,000 jobs" or "No tax money and 25,000 jobs." No, the choice has always been between "No tax money and 25,000 jobs" or "No tax money and no jobs." You're not getting the tax money either way. Either Amazon buil…

Except it's not really just 25,000 jobs, right? It's increased stress on already struggling infrastructure. It's higher prices and increased gentrification in the same neighborhood that has the largest public housing development in the entire country. It's people who will need mail and emergency services and schools for their kids.

All those things cost money. Usually, that money would come from taxing residents and local businesses. But given that we've agreed that the city wouldn't be getting that money, it's not at all clear that those 25,000 jobs would be a good thing.