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Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#361

Post by skybrian »

jhall1468 wrote: post #210
function_seven wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While parent (and others) may be attempting to revise history, I think this outcome is probably for the best. Whatever growth occurs in NY will be organic. Not government-subsidized hyper-growth which can throw things out of whack. Real growth brings with it real increases in public funding, that can be used to fund real increases in infrastructure demands and demands on other public services. When a local government…

> Whatever growth occurs in NY will be organic. Not government-subsidized hyper-growth which can throw things out of whack. It's not going to be organic. Instead, these same deals are going to be spread out to a bunch of other companies, most of which will pay less than Amazon on average and the "subsidies" will take longer to be a net positive. Again, people confuse bribes with standard deals. Any company is eligibl…

I don't think your confidence is justified. Having a lot of smaller employers might be more stable and less disruptive than one big one.

Predicting the future is hard and counterfactuals are tricky, so we may never know which choice was better.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#362

Post by frontloadpro »

rsj_hn wrote: post #238
forkandwait wrote: post #14

Of all the places, why did NYC offer Amazon subsidies? NYC actually has too many good jobs for the amount of space... I am also proud of my cantankerous fellow New Yorkers who fought this.

I think NYC (or SF or any high cost of living area) is a crazy place to put HQ2. In terms of subsidies, while it's easy to dunk on Amazon, and no business should be getting subsidies IMO, there is a real issue here: Cost of Living in NY is higher and Amazon will have to pay higher wages if it puts jobs there rather than a place like Nashville. That's higher wages for the same job. Pretty much every company has a cost…

Less pay sounds good until you see the talent that comes with less pay.

Junior devs and low performing seniors.

Amazon claimed my city didn't have enough talent.

What they meant is that 6 figures is too much to pay per programmer.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#363

Post by quxbar »

cletus wrote: post #330

So this was (IMHO) a shit show from go to whoa. The dog and pony show was a transparent shakedown where Amazon would still probably go where they were always going to go. The whole splitting HQ2 I think showed this. Like it's not even an "HQ" in any sense of the word. It's just an expansion. Also with talk of "25k jobs"... what jobs? Are we talking software engineers or warehouse workers? There's a difference. I don'…

> what jobs? Are we talking software engineers or warehouse workers?

Workers with an average salary of $150,000, I think it's disingenuous to act like you don't know that but you're also an expert in property tax reform.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#364

Post by CPLX »

jlarocco wrote: post #306
jhall1468 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's absolutely no way they are scaling up NY to the same degree they would have with the subsidies. There's no reason to. The value proposition is gone, so now Amazon will slow-roll growth in NY like they will any other office. The fact that you (and many others) consider this a win is an attempt to revise history. This tax deal was all about Amazon expanding very quickly. That deal is gone. But feel free to pat…

> This tax deal was all about Amazon expanding very quickly. Anybody who thinks that through should see why it's such a terrible idea. Not even NY can "very quickly" absorb 25k people in a small area without screwing up quality of life for the people who already live there. That's a great way to make real estate prices sky rocket and screw over the existing residents. And it'll completely screw up infrastructure and…

> Not even NY can "very quickly" absorb 25k people in a small area without screwing up quality of life for the people who already live there.

Of course it can. This is New York fucking City, there are literally single buildings with that many jobs in them here.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#365

Post by i_cant_speel »

drugme wrote: post #250
i_cant_speel wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was hoping they would move to my city for the same reason. There is nothing wrong with hoping something works out in your own self interest.

There is nothing wrong with hoping something works out in your own self interest. It is when you're not considering the adverse effects on others. And when you're already doing quite well enough, as it is.

As long as he isn't in charge of the decision it doesn't matter.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#366

Post by dang »

dekhn wrote: post #329
dang wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't get personally acidic in your comments to HN, regardless of how frustrated you feel with other posts. It corrodes discussion badly, and we're trying to stave off that decline here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I think you misinterpreted his statement. "Cut off your nose to spite your face" is referring to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutting_off_the_nose_to_spite_... In this context, they're referring to the actions of NY (not the comment they're replying to), and TBH, there's nothing personally acidic; it's just a saying.

I was referring to feel free to pat yourself on the back for not "falling for it", which was a gratuitous bit of personal sarcasm, just the sort of thing which acidifies online discourse. Also, arguably, the bit about an attempt to revise history is an uncharitable escalation (though not personal).

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#368

Post by kodablah »

JohnFen wrote: post #345
kodablah wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have plenty of examples where it works out. The town I live in gave large tax breaks not too long ago and it's working well. Nearby, sports facilities were financed with balloted measures at the request of the public, sometimes in conjunction with the local ISDs who share the facilities. The vast majority are benefiting from this public/private economic cooperation.

I can offer a counterexample. In the city I live in, there have been several major tech companies that were given enormous tax breaks and other gifts in exchange for moving in. They'd move in, build their buildings and factories, and everything would look rosy for 3-5 years. Then they'd cut and run, leaving the city worse off than if it had never done the deal in the first place.

Yup, goes both ways. Assuming the companies promised more and underdelivered, your city's economic council should have written the contract-break into the contract. Or assuming the companies didn't promise that much, your city seems to either have done a deal aware of the potential of negative outcome (and accepted it) or did not do due diligence. But it doesn't discount the idea of economic incentives as a whole due to poor city planning in this case (or a gamble, whichever it was).

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#369

Post by [deleted] »

dekhn wrote: post #329
dang wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't get personally acidic in your comments to HN, regardless of how frustrated you feel with other posts. It corrodes discussion badly, and we're trying to stave off that decline here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I think you misinterpreted his statement. "Cut off your nose to spite your face" is referring to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutting_off_the_nose_to_spite_... In this context, they're referring to the actions of NY (not the comment they're replying to), and TBH, there's nothing personally acidic; it's just a saying.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#370

Post by asdff »

ianstallings wrote: post #334
RPLong wrote: post #223

I guess I didn't realize how many commentators here were New Yorkers. XD Everyone's moving to more comfortable places with lower costs of living. NYC is not an attractive place for job candidates unless those candidates are already in NYC. Even companies with a strong presence in NYC are expanding in places like Nashville, Omaha, Dallas, Denver, etc. rather than in NYC. At some point, New Yorkers ought to ask themsel…

Truth. I took a lower paying job in the midwest, and I can now save a lot more money, while also living a less stressful life. NYC is a really cool city and I enjoyed living there. But I "did my time". I think more and more tech workers are going to wake up to the fact that while mega-city life can be cool, it's not the only way to live.

I mean the only reason why you save a lot more money now is because your current lower paying job had a better negotiated salary. You could have just as easily gotten a job with less take home pay in Omaha than in NY.

I think there is something to be said about early career people rushing to NY and not realizing how much 80k really is, though. Schools should really have a class for all majors that just goes over how you calculate and compare cost of living and put a price on benefits, including the intangible benefits like having other employers you could move laterally among without planning to uproot and go 1000 miles away.

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