Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#301

Post by krn » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 6:02 PM UTC

jhall1468 wrote: post #247

airstrike wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not going to be organic. Instead, these same deals are going to be spread out to a bunch of other companies, most of which will pay less than Amazon on average and the "subsidies" will take longer to be a net positive. Only if you assume those other companies collectively hold the same bargaining power that Amazon did, which is an assumption I can't agree with

Man... the misinformation is so stunning. They don't NEED bargaining power because these tax deals were done through programs that already existed in New York . The overwhelming majority of the money involved in this requires you only meet the eligibility requirements. The biggest aspect of this deal for Amazon was reduced regulatory burden. That was Amazon's actual goal here, the tax offsets were just the icing that…

Then why has Google announced a major expansion in New York City without making a show out of it? Did anyone protest about Google adding more than 7,000 jobs to the area? Amazon has clearly failed here to offer something everyone would be happy about.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#302

Post by dang » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 6:02 PM UTC

jhall1468 wrote: post #164

specialp wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The 25k number was just to make a splash and notice they aren't doing that again. Because there aren't really any other areas that could give them 25k skilled employees. They will scale up in Nashville which is expected since it is a growing area, and they will still be in NY due to the talent. The "HQ2" show was primarily to extract large concessions which almost worked. My initial reaction as a NY'er was "…

There's absolutely no way they are scaling up NY to the same degree they would have with the subsidies. There's no reason to. The value proposition is gone, so now Amazon will slow-roll growth in NY like they will any other office. The fact that you (and many others) consider this a win is an attempt to revise history. This tax deal was all about Amazon expanding very quickly. That deal is gone. But feel free to pat…

Please don't get personally acidic in your comments to HN, regardless of how frustrated you feel with other posts.

It corrodes discussion badly, and we're trying to stave off that decline here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#303

Post by ConceptJunkie » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 6:03 PM UTC

chiefalchemist wrote: post #199

magduf wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's actually not a bad idea. We've already proven that the American people do a terrible job selecting a president with the current Electoral College system, so letting the F500 CEOs select the President surely can't be any worse.

Whoa. Let's back up a bit. The DNC and the GOP do a terrible job finding qualified candidates that can do the job. The system is designed to elect the electable. We The People don't have much say in who the parties serve up, who is willing to run , etc. If the relentless (Media) attacks of DJT are an indication, there are few "outsiders" who are going to get involved in the future. And isn't that exactly what status…

Forget everything else, it's First Past the Post voting that is the cause of many of our problems (e.g., no possibility of third parties).

If we had an alternative voting system (there are several good ones), people could actually vote _for_ someone rather than just _against_ someone, and there would be some criteria for voting other than who can put out the most inflammatory campaign commercials.

But again, the status quo would never go for it, and I suspect most voters wouldn't go for a system that can't be explained on a bumper sticker. I'm not trying to insult the intelligence of the average voter, just their attention spans.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#304

Post by austenallred » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #6

Google didn't need any dog and pony show or significant forms of corporate welfare (that we know of) to announce a doubling of their presence in New York. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/12/17/google-...

Google's NYC office is <1/4 the size of what Amazon's would be (and they're predicting 40k over time).

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#305

Post by specialp » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 6:04 PM UTC

jhall1468 wrote: post #235

specialp wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was primarily a deal to ease the regulatory burden of building such a big thing, I'd be all for it. Admittedly NY has an issue now with too many layers of bureaucracy. But this isn't entirely what it is about. It was also about large tax concessions when plenty of large companies are hiring tech in NYC without any of them. A skilled employee in NYC does not last very long at all on the job market. The 25k emplo…

Ugh... any company moving into NY can get these same large tax concessions. Amazon got nothing special outside of reduced regulatory burden. Why is this not understood? This same subsidy is now going to go to 15 companies who all probably pay less on average than Amazon. There are skilled workforces outside of NY, believe it or not. And they aren't going to go through the regulatory burdens to expand NY to a major ca…

Not many corporations I know of get a deal brokered by the mayor and governor privately with multibillion dollar cut after a large spectacle. I realize you might think differently as an Amazon employee.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#306

Post by jlarocco » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

jhall1468 wrote: post #164

specialp wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The 25k number was just to make a splash and notice they aren't doing that again. Because there aren't really any other areas that could give them 25k skilled employees. They will scale up in Nashville which is expected since it is a growing area, and they will still be in NY due to the talent. The "HQ2" show was primarily to extract large concessions which almost worked. My initial reaction as a NY'er was "…

There's absolutely no way they are scaling up NY to the same degree they would have with the subsidies. There's no reason to. The value proposition is gone, so now Amazon will slow-roll growth in NY like they will any other office. The fact that you (and many others) consider this a win is an attempt to revise history. This tax deal was all about Amazon expanding very quickly. That deal is gone. But feel free to pat…

> This tax deal was all about Amazon expanding very quickly.

Anybody who thinks that through should see why it's such a terrible idea. Not even NY can "very quickly" absorb 25k people in a small area without screwing up quality of life for the people who already live there. That's a great way to make real estate prices sky rocket and screw over the existing residents. And it'll completely screw up infrastructure and transportation, because there's not enough money to pay for them when the company causing the issues is getting a huge tax break and not paying their fair share, and they're not things that can be fixed quickly in any case.

> Maybe it works out great as other companies will lease those buildings and hire a combined ~20k employees averaging $150,000 in compensation, but that's likely not going to happen.

If the current residents are qualified for $150k a year jobs then they presumably already have one - it's not like there are 25k unemployed software devs waiting around for companies to move to NY.

That whole competition was a shameful money grab by Amazon and I'm glad it didn't work out for them.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#307

Post by ScottBurson » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

jhall1468 wrote: post #235

specialp wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was primarily a deal to ease the regulatory burden of building such a big thing, I'd be all for it. Admittedly NY has an issue now with too many layers of bureaucracy. But this isn't entirely what it is about. It was also about large tax concessions when plenty of large companies are hiring tech in NYC without any of them. A skilled employee in NYC does not last very long at all on the job market. The 25k emplo…

Ugh... any company moving into NY can get these same large tax concessions. Amazon got nothing special outside of reduced regulatory burden. Why is this not understood? This same subsidy is now going to go to 15 companies who all probably pay less on average than Amazon. There are skilled workforces outside of NY, believe it or not. And they aren't going to go through the regulatory burdens to expand NY to a major ca…

> any company moving into NY can get these same large tax concessions

Interesting if true, but I don't think people are going to accept it on your say-so. I recommend digging up a citation.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#308

Post by jayess » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

wwarner wrote: post #287

This is really tragic and foolish. The taxes generated will far far outweigh the tax incentives offered. The local city politicians reversed their positions because they didn't get to bring up their pet projects in the negotiation phase. There is absolutely no reason why the city couldn't use new revenue to protect low income residents from dislocation. It's not a corporate scam -- this is real economic progress for…

I find it amusing to watch the political class eat its own on this one.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#309

Post by jotjotzzz » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

thex10 wrote: post #219

CydeWeys wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would that be an either-or thing? I'd rather have Amazon here with no tax subsidies so that total tax revenue increases so that there's more money to fix the subways.

> Why would that be an either-or thing? ask the state government, who's happy to give Amazon the tax break but not nearly so happy to fund the agencies running its largest city's transit.

This! They are deferring the inevitable time when the subway is no longer sustainable. Are we waiting for another Sandy?

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#310

Post by kjsbfkjbf » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #263

jhall1468 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whatever growth occurs in NY will be organic. Not government-subsidized hyper-growth which can throw things out of whack. It's not going to be organic. Instead, these same deals are going to be spread out to a bunch of other companies, most of which will pay less than Amazon on average and the "subsidies" will take longer to be a net positive. Again, people confuse bribes with standard deals. Any company is eligibl…

> There's no way to turn this into a positive here. I dunno. It seems like an unambiguous positive to me. The giveaway to Amazon was enormous -- so much so that it seems extremely dubious that New York would ever have been able to recoup that money, let alone increase it.

And even if they could that's more money into Big Tech oligopolies. Not something we really need to be supporting.