Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#181

Post by jhall1468 » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #132

forkandwait wrote: post #14

Of all the places, why did NYC offer Amazon subsidies? NYC actually has too many good jobs for the amount of space... I am also proud of my cantankerous fellow New Yorkers who fought this.

The subsidies were very contingent on Amazon delivering all of their promised uplift. But I think people scoffed at the top-line best case subsidies. I forget where, but I remember seeing someone dig into the details of the offer and Amazon was not actually getting that much better of a deal than any other NYC business.

They were getting very near the same deal that any other company can get through a common tax-reduction program in NY. The difference was scale: 25k jobs was vastly, vastly more than any other company had used for this.

The sheer number of people from NY saying they are "proud" of this shows just how far removed people are from reality.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#182

Post by bobthepanda » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

raiyu wrote: post #70

After being a resident of NYC for 30 years and seeing the city change and become a technology hub and just a financial center I think this is a real loss for NYC. It would also be in Long island City which would provide a huge influx of new workers and move that neighborhood forward in development rapidly. The down side would be that it would push some residents and business owners out but this is simply a fact of li…

LIC is one of the most heavily redeveloped areas in the city with 40+ story towers popping up like candy. It didn’t need a development boost.

In fact they tore up an existing redevelopment plan for HQ2

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#183

Post by nerdb4itwascool » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

untog wrote: post #130

forkandwait wrote: post #14

Of all the places, why did NYC offer Amazon subsidies? NYC actually has too many good jobs for the amount of space... I am also proud of my cantankerous fellow New Yorkers who fought this.

A clarification: NYC didn't offer Amazon subsidies. New York State did. That's really the core of the tension - the whole deal was negotiated in secret then announced to the world as a finished product. That tends not to earn you goodwill with city politicians you deliberately excluded from the process.

agreed. the drive to squash this deal was mainly driven from local politicians who were whining that they were cut out of the process.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#184

Post by lccarrasco » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 5:28 PM UTC

untog wrote: post #149

raiyu wrote: post #70

After being a resident of NYC for 30 years and seeing the city change and become a technology hub and just a financial center I think this is a real loss for NYC. It would also be in Long island City which would provide a huge influx of new workers and move that neighborhood forward in development rapidly. The down side would be that it would push some residents and business owners out but this is simply a fact of li…

Would the tax breaks eventually be offset? Amazon paid zero federal tax for the last two years running. They're experts at tax avoidance. I don't see any reason to assume they wouldn't do the same in NY.

All new employees would've paid income and sales taxes.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#185

Post by function_seven » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 5:28 PM UTC

jhall1468 wrote: post #164

specialp wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The 25k number was just to make a splash and notice they aren't doing that again. Because there aren't really any other areas that could give them 25k skilled employees. They will scale up in Nashville which is expected since it is a growing area, and they will still be in NY due to the talent. The "HQ2" show was primarily to extract large concessions which almost worked. My initial reaction as a NY'er was "…

There's absolutely no way they are scaling up NY to the same degree they would have with the subsidies. There's no reason to. The value proposition is gone, so now Amazon will slow-roll growth in NY like they will any other office. The fact that you (and many others) consider this a win is an attempt to revise history. This tax deal was all about Amazon expanding very quickly. That deal is gone. But feel free to pat…

While parent (and others) may be attempting to revise history, I think this outcome is probably for the best.

Whatever growth occurs in NY will be organic. Not government-subsidized hyper-growth which can throw things out of whack.

Real growth brings with it real increases in public funding, that can be used to fund real increases in infrastructure demands and demands on other public services.

When a local government has to bribe their way into increasing local business, they tip the scales in favor of one thing (i.e. jobs) while burdening other things (tax base, transit support, etc.)

When companies choose to do business in your area—because it's naturally the best place for them—it functions as a market verification that you're doing something right.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#186

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

Justin_K wrote: post #112

If these states are so flush in cash that they can give tax breaks, they should go to small business... not the richest guy in the world. Why should government intervene in in a free market and give one business a massive advantage over everybody else?

NY has multiple programs to attract small business:

https://esd.ny.gov/excelsior-jobs-program https://esd.ny.gov/startup-ny-program

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#187

Post by skh » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #172

skh wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you take my comment more seriously than I intended. It's a suggestion meant to provoke thought about the nature/reality of U.S. presidential elections. With the suggestion one sees that my belief is that large corporations have far more influence on presidential elections than ordinary people like me have. But we have the facade that its actual humans that elect leaders and not the economic entities that are…

So vote for elected officials who will fight for a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United.

Yes! In addition to doing this I write commentary on websites in the hopes of spurring action in others. I do this in real life as well.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#188

Post by magduf » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #129

OldFatCactus wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is not a shortage of Software jobs here. You're also misrepresenting the intent of his comment.

So if anything, Amazon will make the market worse for all other companies by sucking up a lot of the talent and causing a rise in wages. It might be good short term for software devs, but like Seattle and The Valley, it hurts absolutely every other industry. The person in your IGA or Starbucks often has to commute via bus or train or (god forbid) car over an hour out just so they can afford to barely make it, while t…

Highly-paid professionals need service people, so bringing more of them into your city creates more demand for other careers to support them.

If there isn't enough affordable housing for those lower-paid people, that's a failure by the local politicians. Don't blame the highly-paid professionals; they're not the ones controlling zoning and development.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#189

Post by untog » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

nerdb4itwascool wrote: post #183

untog wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A clarification: NYC didn't offer Amazon subsidies. New York State did. That's really the core of the tension - the whole deal was negotiated in secret then announced to the world as a finished product. That tends not to earn you goodwill with city politicians you deliberately excluded from the process.

agreed. the drive to squash this deal was mainly driven from local politicians who were whining that they were cut out of the process.

As an NYC resident I'm glad my elected officials are "butt hurt" at not being involved in a political process that would affect the city in a large way. If they weren't "butt hurt" they really shouldn't be in their jobs.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#190

Post by puzzle » Thu, Feb 14, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

walrus01 wrote: post #95

akhilcacharya wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doubling their office there still pales in comparison to the headcount projected for LIC. 7K max vs. 25k targeted for Amazon. Amazon already has a presence in NYC.

Worth noting that Google owns all of 111 8th in NYC. They're slowly not renewing leases for existing tenants and taking over the whole building. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111_Eighth_Avenue 111 8th is a major internet traffic exchange point. It's also gargantuan, it's 2.9 million square feet and occupies a whole city block. One of the interesting things about 111 8th is that it was designed for much higher than no…

Some of the largest colo tenants like Internap already left years ago: https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2013/07/29/inte...

At Google's densities, they would never run a datacenter in Manhattan. POPs, sure, like their peering with https://www.peeringdb.com/fac/16, but that's it.