I know Norman; not personally. His real complaint as far as I've ever been able to determine is that he is a highly symbolic thinker; and because of that won't accept certain assumptions that everyone else takes as a given - usually what the Reals are. I'm very happy to accept than any length in geometry is a number by definition (hence sqrt(2), constructed by a 1-1-sqrt(2) triangle, is clearly a number corresponding…
Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)
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Re: Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)
#22I know Norman; not personally. His real complaint as far as I've ever been able to determine is that he is a highly symbolic thinker; and because of that won't accept certain assumptions that everyone else takes as a given - usually what the Reals are. I'm very happy to accept than any length in geometry is a number by definition (hence sqrt(2), constructed by a 1-1-sqrt(2) triangle, is clearly a number corresponding…
Interestingly, that set of numbers is still very incomplete relative to what we expect to be able to talk about in modern math. It doesn't even include the roots of all polynomials (for example, the unique positive solution to x^3 - 2 = 0 isn't the length of any constructible segment in classical geometry).
Re: Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)
#23I know Norman; not personally. His real complaint as far as I've ever been able to determine is that he is a highly symbolic thinker; and because of that won't accept certain assumptions that everyone else takes as a given - usually what the Reals are. I'm very happy to accept than any length in geometry is a number by definition (hence sqrt(2), constructed by a 1-1-sqrt(2) triangle, is clearly a number corresponding…
>He won't accept sqrt(2) as a number because it can't be represented in Hindu-Arabic notation. You sure of that? Based on another of his other blog posts [1], his objection seems to be about uncomputable real numbers. Very roughly, a real number R is computable iff there exists a Turing machine that, given a natural number n on its initial tape, terminates with the n th digit of R . See [2] for a formal definition. S…
Eg, "These phoney real numbers that most of my colleagues pretend to deal with on a daily basis ... such as sqrt(2), and pi, and Euler’s number e." [0]
Even in the article you cite, the irony of a pure mathematician of all people complaining that a concept has no tangible link to reality is a bit of a give away that he is speaking from the heart rather than the head. That isn't a valid complaint about pure mathematics; the point is patterns for patterns sake. So what if there are no known examples of your pattern? Study it anyway!
Great case of the flaw maketh the masterpiece; apart from that one little quirk with infinite things he is a lovely character and a force to be reckoned with. And I expect his personality motivates a lot of interesting research from him regardless.
[0] https://njwildberger.com/2014/10/06/the-infinitely-real-delu...
Re: Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)
#24There is a distinction between analytically correct expositions, and ones which build on naive intuition to teach students. It is inappropriate to expect beginning students to follow a logically rigorous exposition. That said, there are philosophical questions about truth, infinity, unknowable statements and the like. Mathematicians have by and large settled on a set of answers to these. Every statement is true or fa…
A profound question to reflect on; and interesting to contrast with modern science as a philosophical foundation that there might not be any continuous objects present in reality. Might be discrete all the way down.
In a sense, it seems like the uncomputable reals are an artifact of assuming continuity, ie, between any two numbers located on a line there must be more numbers. Part of the reason it is so unintuitive is we don't have any real lines to play with at the physical human scale, they fall apart at the atomic level and turn out to be non-continuous approximations.
Re: Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)
#25Did the guy ever deliver on his promise to create a better system? I thought the problems he was pointing out was motivation for a better system (that united the naive understanding and rigor better?), but the further into the article I got, the more it just seemed like a list of complaints. Having 1) studied "naive statistics" when I was young and 2) learning the full-on measure-theory version a la Bourbaki, and now…
The best way to appreciate the information-theoretic role of sigma algebras is to look at them in the simplest case, where you have a discrete-time, finite-valued process. Then a sigma algebra is equivalent to a partition of the state space and it represents the information that can be gained from an observation; it's like a random variable without specific values, just the discriminating information from different outcomes. To say that a random variable is measurable with respect to the sigma algebra is to say that its value may only depend on information that can be gained from an observation. A filtration of sigma algebras corresponds to a causal series of observations where the observer learns more information over time.
The conditional expectation of a random variable with respect to a sigma algebra (or partition or other random variable) is another random variable that tells you the expectation over the states consistent with a given observation; this new random variable is measurable with respect to the sigma algebra you conditioned on, which as mentioned earlier means it only depends on the information gained from an observation. The conditional expectation is the best least-squares estimator given the information from an observation in the same way that the usual expectation is the best least-squares estimator given no information.
Re: Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)
#26Re: Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)
#27Then I would explain that imaginary numbers mean harmonics. exponential functions give you a derivative, one function can serve as input to another, PID control, ... ... and that's about it.
Re: Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)
#28I wonder why he never talks about this – surely as a mathematician he should be aware of intuitionistic logic? (Or is it that as a computer science and linguistics wannabe, I am aware of it but many mathematicians aren't bothered to take a look?)
If you stop thinking of axioms as value judgements and instead as definitions of formal systems (or adopt a more general system that encompasses others, such as Gentzen style sequent calculus with the only axiom being modus ponens), you achieve a piece of mind. But obviously his beef is not only that; he would like other people to admit the value of the thinking he prefers. And I agree with that.
Re: Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)
#29Mathematics and physics both began with the advent of astronomy: Babylonians and others were curious to trace star patterns and from there both physics and math developed in tandem and influenced each other greatly. Really, neither would have developed without the other.
Calculus was invented for calculations in physics. This gave rise to differential equations which we use to model so many nontrivial things. The differential eqns describe flow and continuity and arguably reality. Differentiation and smoothness can't be defined over finite sets in the same way. My philosophical counter-argument to finitists is that clearly we're on the right path to understanding the universe and nature when using the reals. It seems foolish to shy from this because computers have trouble computing some functions. Statements like "there are only finitely many atoms in the universe" don't improve our understanding of much but PDEs explain.
Re: Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Almost all real numbers that exist can never, even in principle, be written down or described in any meaningful way. I don't think many people see that as a matter of philosophy.
Most people are uninformed. This question strikes at the heart of the debate between Constructivism and Formalism. A debate about what it means for things to exist, statements to be true, and so on. This is very much a matter of philosophy. To a Constructivist, most of classical mathematics is nonsense. And Constructivism is at least as logically consistent as classical mathematics. More precisely any contradiction f…