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Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)

njwildberger.com

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Re: Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)

#3
There is a distinction between analytically correct expositions, and ones which build on naive intuition to teach students. It is inappropriate to expect beginning students to follow a logically rigorous exposition.

That said, there are philosophical questions about truth, infinity, unknowable statements and the like. Mathematicians have by and large settled on a set of answers to these. Every statement is true or false, regardless of whether we know the answer, or even whether we can know the answer. Infinite sets exist, and are described by a known set of axioms called ZFC. Almost all real numbers that exist can never, even in principle, be written down or described in any meaningful way. (In what sense do they exist again?)

All of these statements are part of classical mathematics. Almost every elementary exposition will implicitly assume that they are try. Yet they can all be questioned, and their truth can never be settled in any absolute sense. However woe betide the student who dares question these in a math class.

Re: Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)

#5
post #3

There is a distinction between analytically correct expositions, and ones which build on naive intuition to teach students. It is inappropriate to expect beginning students to follow a logically rigorous exposition. That said, there are philosophical questions about truth, infinity, unknowable statements and the like. Mathematicians have by and large settled on a set of answers to these. Every statement is true or fa…

> Almost all real numbers that exist can never, even in principle, be written down or described in any meaningful way.

I don't think many people see that as a matter of philosophy.

Re: Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)

#6
post #2

If real numbers get this guy's goat, I think he will go ballistic when he hears about bra-ket formalism that quantum theory instructors foist upon students of physics.

According to classical mathematics, only a countable number of finite definitions of numbers exist. And an uncountable number of real numbers exist. Therefore almost all real numbers that exist do not correspond to any possible finite definition of a number.

Tell me. In what sense does an abstract concept exist that has no possible definition or unique description?

Re: Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)

#7
post #3

There is a distinction between analytically correct expositions, and ones which build on naive intuition to teach students. It is inappropriate to expect beginning students to follow a logically rigorous exposition. That said, there are philosophical questions about truth, infinity, unknowable statements and the like. Mathematicians have by and large settled on a set of answers to these. Every statement is true or fa…

> Almost all real numbers that exist can never, even in principle, be written down or described in any meaningful way. I don't think many people see that as a matter of philosophy.

Most people are uninformed.

This question strikes at the heart of the debate between Constructivism and Formalism. A debate about what it means for things to exist, statements to be true, and so on. This is very much a matter of philosophy.

To a Constructivist, most of classical mathematics is nonsense. And Constructivism is at least as logically consistent as classical mathematics.

More precisely any contradiction found in Constructivism necessarily will lead to a contradiction in classical mathematics. The converse is only partially true. Gödel did prove that a logical contradiction in the classical handling of infinity will lead to a contradiction in Constructivism. But a flaw in a specific set of classical axioms, such as ZFC, need not lead to a flaw in usual Constructivism.

Re: Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)

#8
post #3

There is a distinction between analytically correct expositions, and ones which build on naive intuition to teach students. It is inappropriate to expect beginning students to follow a logically rigorous exposition. That said, there are philosophical questions about truth, infinity, unknowable statements and the like. Mathematicians have by and large settled on a set of answers to these. Every statement is true or fa…

Well I don’t mean to be rude but many logicians and set theorists I know will be sad to find themselves out of a job if what you said about these questions being settled is true

Re: Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)

#9
I know Norman; not personally.

His real complaint as far as I've ever been able to determine is that he is a highly symbolic thinker; and because of that won't accept certain assumptions that everyone else takes as a given - usually what the Reals are. I'm very happy to accept than any length in geometry is a number by definition (hence sqrt(2), constructed by a 1-1-sqrt(2) triangle, is clearly a number corresponding to that length). He won't accept sqrt(2) as a number because it can't be represented in Hindu-Arabic notation. This isn't really a logical issue, he just won't use everyone else's definitions.

He's worth listening too because he is good at maths despite that handicap and his perspective is interesting to provoke a bit of reflection on what your assumptions are and what does infinity really mean anyway. His complaints are otherwise unlikely to catch on.

Re: Logical difficulties in modern mathematics (2012)

#10
post #6
post #2

If real numbers get this guy's goat, I think he will go ballistic when he hears about bra-ket formalism that quantum theory instructors foist upon students of physics.

According to classical mathematics, only a countable number of finite definitions of numbers exist. And an uncountable number of real numbers exist. Therefore almost all real numbers that exist do not correspond to any possible finite definition of a number. Tell me. In what sense does an abstract concept exist that has no possible definition or unique description?

The amount of paper in the universe is finite, not countably infinite, which means almost all natural numbers can't be written down either. But despite its philosophical dubiousness, the set of natural numbers is still useful. If we can prove things about all natural numbers, it doesn't matter how much paper we have; the things we prove will still be true for any individual natural number we can write.

It's the same idea for the reals; we don't actually care about the vast majority of the real numbers, but since it's hard to know ahead of time which ones we will care about, we might as well prove things about all of them!

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