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Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

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Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#131
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if there isn't a pipeline problem? What if there is an actual difference in preference? To be clear, i'm including 'preference' as a sub-component of 'pipeline problem'. I think it's a cultural open question whether or not we consider this a 'problem'. I think the argument for preference is much stronger on the gender question though, than on the minority question. There's strong psych research indicating pref…

Given the link between tech work and depression, and more generally the link between depression and careers with very little physical activity, I think it's unconscionable to modify the preferences of people who would otherwise prefer to not work in tech. By all means, help people who desire it. By why 'correct' people who don't?

Ya, i'm not a huge fan of 'correcting' people's preferences. I do think it's possible that part of the issue is how women are socialized, and it's also possible part of the issue is how CS is taught. However, I think the lion's share of the variance is explained by biologically innate preferences, and while there could be good arguments for changing those, I don't see any being made at the moment.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#132
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once went on an interview to Uber in Palo Alto. At lunchtime, when we went to the cafeteria, I saw most of the 200+ workers were either Chinese or Indian, sitting in their prospective table. Same with LinkedIn and workday in Santa Clara. I don’t see any racisms in Silicon Valley

If most were either Chinese or Indian, then they were greatly over-represented compared to US demographics. If you replace Chinese with white, it'd be taken as a sign of racism and privilege. So why isn't it racism in this case?

Approximately 1/3 of the world population is either Chinese or Indian. Probably even more if you consider only countries with a certain minimum level of economic development.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#133
post #8

For the millionth time. The distribution of populations not lining up with the general population distributions is not indicative of discrimination. Not to mention that the "anti-brown people" narrative absolutely dissolves in the face of the massive overrepresentation of Indians and other Asians. To say that Silicon Valley has a "race problem" and only include the employment statistics as they relate to the populati…

My beliefs aside [0], you do bring up a good point. I can't find the HN thread, but there was a good TEDx presentation on it as well:

Given two curves on the same graph, you are not guaranteed to be able to min/max them simultaneously.

For example: say you are a mortgage broker at a bank and you have to give out mortgages to people in your community. Obviously, the people in your community are diverse. There are men, women, white people, black people, homosexuals, heterosexuals, etc. all wanting mortgages. Say you have some historical data that you know to be accurate, namely the credit score of successful applicants, the associated foreclosure rate, and some demographic data like race and sex. Also say that you want the bank to remain solvent and competitive, handing out loans to the best applicants and also garnering a reputation for being a 'fair' community bank that people will actually be able to get loans from. Now, the question is, what is the cutoff for credit-scores that will cause an applicant to not get a mortgage [1]?

Say, on the y-axis is the foreclosure rate, and on the x-axis is an applicant's credit score. You have some curves for white women, black women, white men, black men, and many other permutations of the human rainbow. These curves are all different from each other.

Now, if you set an arbitrary cut-off score, you may be setting a score that says that white people are less likely to get a mortgage than black people. That's obviously disenfranchising white people in your community, and you should change the cut-off to be more equitable to the people around you.

However, now that you have changed the cut-off for approval of a mortgage to be racial equitable, you have now made it such that men are less likely to get a mortgage than women are. This is also not good, and you should change the cut-off again to be fair to all sexes and genders. However, now you are back to being unfair to white people, again.

Given the data you have, you are in a situation where, no matter what you do, you are discriminatory. In fact, I'd say that this is the most likely situation to be in. That all the curves and graphs would align just so and that you could be non-discriminatory under ALL scenarios is extremely unlikely. Honestly, you do have to pick and choose who you will not discriminate against.

This may seem disheartening, and, yeah, it is [2]. However, that does not mean that we shouldn't try to change things. If anything, understanding that you will very likely be discriminatory no-matter-what, is helpful. You now have a better view of what you can change and how that may affect things. You can choose where to set your parameters with better clarity towards your fellow humans. Maybe you oscillate between gender-parity and height-parity. Maybe you choose to focus on income-inequality for 5 years and then switch to racial-inequality for a focus. Whatever your thesis is on how to gain better equity in your community, maybe you now have a better understanding of the mechanics of the system and you can better affect it positively.

[0] In talking privately to friends that are also considered 'minorities', discrimination is occurring and is systemic. Though this is personal anecdata.

[1] I'm trying to simplify this as much as possible. Obviously, real applications are VERY nuanced and complicated.

[2] Unless you are a journalist. Then, well, this means you will always have a lot to write about!

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#134
post #44

This push towards intellectual and cultural uniformity is so incredibly anti-diversity. "All cultures must have the same interests as white people" is essentially what is being said after you account for all the various "systemic privileges." EDIT>> to put it another way, white people consider something "wrong" if different demographics aren't interested in the same subjects as they are, at the same rate. It's the ul…

That's a very interesting take, I've never considered it that way before. I guess that goes to show I need to work on my empathy.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#135
post #8

For the millionth time. The distribution of populations not lining up with the general population distributions is not indicative of discrimination. Not to mention that the "anti-brown people" narrative absolutely dissolves in the face of the massive overrepresentation of Indians and other Asians. To say that Silicon Valley has a "race problem" and only include the employment statistics as they relate to the populati…

My beliefs aside [0], you do bring up a good point. I can't find the HN thread, but there was a good TEDx presentation on it as well: Given two curves on the same graph, you are not guaranteed to be able to min/max them simultaneously. For example: say you are a mortgage broker at a bank and you have to give out mortgages to people in your community. Obviously, the people in your community are diverse. There are men,…

If the bank does not take race or gender into its decision-making process, it is not subject to race/gender discrimination. Period. If the outcome produced is that people of a certain race or gender receive more or less loans, that does not mean that there is anything wrong with that system. The banks isolated system is not at all discriminatory, it just receives different inputs that happen to differ, on average, between population groups.

If you're concerned for the capability of a given arbitrary population group to have a different outcome, then the goal posts need to necessarily be moved back. Why did that population have lower credit score, lower income, lower wealth? Historical racism? That certainly has some role, but that has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the present system is itself racially biased. Is it the code or is it the data?

Regarding your anecdata, consider an interesting thing I saw recently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk3tVSJSkQM

This was meant to highlight injustice, but really just shows how differently people can interpret the exact same events occurring to them on the basis of their preconceptions.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what changed in 1984? https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when...

The attitudes of men changed? Women's attitudes wouldn't have to change at all to produce that graph.

That doesn’t explain the NSF data.

If women’s behavior was constant, then we’d see the same relative growth of women compared to women, but we don’t. Just looking at bachelor’s degrees, we see women exit the field at 2x the rate of men, and enter at lower rates as well. (% YoY men to men, women to women).

https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf13327/content.cfm?pub_id=4...

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#137
post #7

More like journalism is using race to hide its jealousy problem. Tech now has the power, influence, and compensation that journalist used to have, and they're mad about it. Most of these companies go way out of their way to recruit minorities and women. If you believe that not having enough of them in tech companies is a problem, you're going to have to look further down the funnel, to college major choices and hones…

The whole thing is a bullshit joke to begin with; it's always a complaint about diversity in jobs perceived to have status, but never jobs that are not. No complaints about diversity in fast food. No complaints about diversity in landscaping or construction.

We've asked you countless times to stop breaking the guidelines, so we've banned the account.

> Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents.

> Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#138
This seems like it's using Palintir and Oracle to tar all of Silicon Valley. Aren't Google, Apple, MS, Facebook, etc. leaders on diversity transparency across the entire business community, tech and non-tech?

>The vast majority of companies on the list that report their full diversity numbers are in the tech sector. Companies like Google, Facebook, and Apple have released reports on the demographics of their workforce in recent years, so it may be unsurprising that 75% of Fortune 500 firms publishing their numbers are in the tech space.

http://fortune.com/2017/06/07/fortune-500-diversity/

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#139
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Bloomberg article is either intentionally misleading on where they pulled their stats from OR they used a different table. Regardless the stats don't match the chart you referenced so I am guessing it is a different source. I don't find a straight map for your numbers either.. can you clarify how you got those numbers?

The US numbers I pulled directly from a table in the EEOC report. The EEOC report says the data is from 2014, and the article's charts cite "Latest comparable data as of 2014", so I am not sure why there are minor discrepancies in the article's US numbers unless they didn't use 2014 data.

Which table? Thanks.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And corporate diversity goals are based on the pipeline, not the general population. Lots of folks in this conversation seem to be making utterly incorrect assumptions about programs that they seem to have deep contempt for. Unsurprising.

It's certainly true that some minorities are underrepresented in tech. A lot of the irritation you're seeing comes from the repeated accusations and implications that this is due to some unspoken policy of discrimination at tech companies. Companies can and should make an effort to ensure they're hiring a diverse range of people. However, it needs to be done with the bigger picture in mind - otherwise it becomes a de…

So policies that result in under-representation of POC are neutral, but changing hiring & retention practices to improve diversity is a defacto quota system?
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