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Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

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Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#91

Post by dontreact »

ralusek wrote: post #78
dontreact wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me the issue is not discrimination but rather representation. I will give you a concrete example. Our team (working in medicine) had very few Latinos for a long time. As a result of this we completely avoided gathering training data from Latin America because no one was well versed in how to conduct business there, yet we had data/deals with US, Europe and Asia. As a result our algorithms will likely not help Lati…

The example you gave is a diversity of skills , and that diversity of skills was actually a requirement for your business. If the inclusion of individuals possessing those additional skills (ability to speak Spanish, ability to network effectively in a given foreign country/culture) happens to map on to a racial or ethnic diversity, great, but that's not what's being advocated for here. This also brings up an interes…

I don't know anyone who believes in Claim 1 as you've presented it. There is an alternate version that I do believe

"All populations of people are inherently valuable and therefore should not be left behind by advancements in technology"

The examples I gave were both cases where it was not obvious at all to predict that the skills would be needed.

For example, while the low level circuit designer probably won't benefit from cultural and racial awareness, he may not always be a low level circuit designer in the company. He may rise in the company and start making decisions about how/where/which circuits are built. And at some point having cultural and racial awareness would be a benefit.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#92

Post by darkpuma »

darawk wrote: post #75
air7 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if there isn't a pipeline problem? What if there is an actual difference in preference? For example, looking at gender and STEM it seems that [0]: a. Countries that push for more gender equality see less women in STEM. b. Girls in school perform just as well as boys in STEM. Also, men are also highly over-represented in low-end jobs such as drivers, construction, mechanics etc [1]. Is that also a sign to a bias/…

> What if there isn't a pipeline problem? What if there is an actual difference in preference? To be clear, i'm including 'preference' as a sub-component of 'pipeline problem'. I think it's a cultural open question whether or not we consider this a 'problem'. I think the argument for preference is much stronger on the gender question though, than on the minority question. There's strong psych research indicating pref…

Given the link between tech work and depression, and more generally the link between depression and careers with very little physical activity, I think it's unconscionable to modify the preferences of people who would otherwise prefer to not work in tech.

By all means, help people who desire it. By why 'correct' people who don't?

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#93

Post by dontreact »

haberman wrote: post #89
dontreact wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me the issue is not discrimination but rather representation. I will give you a concrete example. Our team (working in medicine) had very few Latinos for a long time. As a result of this we completely avoided gathering training data from Latin America because no one was well versed in how to conduct business there, yet we had data/deals with US, Europe and Asia. As a result our algorithms will likely not help Lati…

I agree that we all have blind spots and that diversity in decision-makers can help correct these. If this principle was applied consistently across any dimension where such blind spots are likely to exist, I would be on board. However when some axes of diversity are elevated over others, based not on likeliness of blind spots but rather on unrelated grievances ("historically marginalized subgroups"), the whole exerc…

I think gender, race, class, and sexual orientation are probably the most important dimensions. I gave very specific reasons why race is important in my field of medicine, and I don't know why you think I am highlighting it as an important dimension because of historical marginalization. What are other ones that should be as elevated?

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#94

Post by jameane »

thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #59
darawk wrote: post #7

More like journalism is using race to hide its jealousy problem. Tech now has the power, influence, and compensation that journalist used to have, and they're mad about it. Most of these companies go way out of their way to recruit minorities and women. If you believe that not having enough of them in tech companies is a problem, you're going to have to look further down the funnel, to college major choices and hones…

At a company I worked at they hired an young female intern in her late high school years, who made it obvious she didn't really want to be there. Our project manager made sure to tell us to "make programming seem as interesting as possible to her". When I was 17, I would have killed for an opportunity to work at a software company, and so would many other young kids. It's time for the world to admit, there's reasons…

We need to stop trying to attribute that to gender. I loved math as a kid, I thought it was fun. I was on the math team for middle school and high school. I had a computer at home from a young age, and played the math games my parents forced on me. In addition to the game, games. (I am 40 - so things were pretty different as I was coming up. But my family was an early adopter of technology - we had a computer when I was 5. And if I would have had different upbringing the outcome could have been quite different.)

Being a programmer wasn't something that was on my radar at all. I didn't know any. I didn't know it was a job that existed. As I got older it seemed like "computer people" only liked video games, magic cards, scifi books and didn't like to hang out with people. It seemed boring and antisocial - and not like my sort of people.

I probably would have been a great engineer. And while I work in tech, I am a marketer and have worked in more technical roles around software implementation, operations, pre-sales in addition to all of the marketing jobs.

So let's ask ourselves something else - how many people do we lose along the way because of exposure or the way we have socialized what an engineer is, does and likes.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#95

Post by CM30 »

fipple wrote: post #11

The whole “diversity industry” (and it is a huge industry) is based on a lie... that “diversity” improves a company’s performance. The research on this is so shaky with so much empirical evidence to the contrary, and everyone knows it, which is why companies are trying to do nothing more than “lip service.”

This is something I've wondered about a lot as well. Look at any large company in the world, then look at how diverse they are. Probably isn't much of a correlation between one and the other.

Looking at companies like Google and Amazon and Facebook and what not, you'd suspect any effects from having a diverse workforce are massively outweighed by other factors like selling a product/service more people want, good product design, price, marketing efforts, etc.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#96

Post by felinista »

rndgermandude wrote: post #53
felinista wrote: post #9

If lack of diversity isn't a problem, why aren't these companies open with their figures? Why go to such extents? There's also research to suggest women and minorities are underpaid relative to their male, white counterparts, shouldn't companies fix that?

You're lumping in two different issues: (perceived) lack of diversity on the gender and/or minority axis (or black/Hispanics really, as Asian minorities are well represented it seems), and companies underpaying certain groups. Actually, if you can pay women and minorities less for the same job and get away with it so far, and the abusive companies do just that, I'd guess those abusive companies would hire more, not l…

My point was that certain underrepresented groups are treated differently in STEM fields (particularly tech), they either face obstacles to being hired, or, once hired, are not paid proportionately relative to their white, male colleagues. Research exists to support both of these points.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#97

Post by jameane »

crowdpleaser wrote: post #87
dpflan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be willing to share your ideas on what can be done at the beginning of the pipeline?

Sure, instill discipline in schools. Go to a school of 'underrepresented minorities' and you'll see an incredible amount of misbehavior. Anyone who struggles to listen and not gratify their most immediate desires will probably fail to develop technical skills. Also, immediate suspension for kids who bully academically-inclined students for 'acting white'. Not only is it a racially charged statement that probably has…

Maybe have a little empathy here. In a low-income school, kids are walking in the door with way more problems than your upper middle class school where most kids have their basic needs met.

Also, it is time to retire this stereotype that every non-white kid who is academically inclined is being bullied for acting white at school all the time. I get the most grief from white kids about "acting white" growing up. From fellow black kids it was pretty rare - 1-2 times. Mostly other kids were more inclined to help uplift me.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#98

Post by byproxy »

dontreact wrote: post #51
ralusek wrote: post #8

For the millionth time. The distribution of populations not lining up with the general population distributions is not indicative of discrimination. Not to mention that the "anti-brown people" narrative absolutely dissolves in the face of the massive overrepresentation of Indians and other Asians. To say that Silicon Valley has a "race problem" and only include the employment statistics as they relate to the populati…

To me the issue is not discrimination but rather representation. I will give you a concrete example. Our team (working in medicine) had very few Latinos for a long time. As a result of this we completely avoided gathering training data from Latin America because no one was well versed in how to conduct business there, yet we had data/deals with US, Europe and Asia. As a result our algorithms will likely not help Lati…

When you say "Latino", do you mean someone who actually hails from Latin America? Because I'm Latino from the United States and I'd probably be just as lost when it comes to dealing with Latin America as a non-Latino from the United States.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#99

Post by jonathankoren »

strken wrote: post #61
jonathankoren wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying the top X% is racially skewed? Because all things being equal, if the only difference between the two groups is color of their skin, I'd say that was a textbook definition of racial bias.

The question isn't whether there's racial bias anywhere in the pipeline from conception to employment, because there clearly is. It's whether there's racial bias in the SV companies themselves, or whether it happens exclusively in earlier stages.

He's explicitly rejecting the notion that the already skewed nationwide tech population is relevant. One would think, that if I was a large company recruiting nationwide, with brand name that's a resume magnet, I would be drawing from the skewed nationwide tech population, because that's what's entering the pipeline. If controlling for geographic factors, that's not what's coming out, something looks amiss. He explicitly is saying that "talent" is determining factor. That seems odd, since that would be conditionally independent.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using Trade Secrets to Hide Its Race Problem

#100

Post by refurb »

dontreact wrote: post #88
refurb wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our team (working in medicine) had very few Latinos for a long time. As a result of this we completely avoided gathering training data from Latin America because no one was well versed in how to conduct business there Isn't that more diversity of experience versus diversity of racial makeup? You could have a white guy who grew up in Latin America provide you with the insights. A Latino who grew up in the US might hav…

The point is that without diversity, even awareness of these problems can be missing. Obviously once you understand what the skill/experience gap is, you can go out and try to fill it. But a team lacking in diversity will also end up with these sorts of blind spots. Latin Americans can (and did :) ) notice this gap and now it is beginning to be filled.

But my point is that it's diversity of experience/knowledge, not racial diversity that solves those problems.
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