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Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

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Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#71

Post by heyjudy »

SeaSeaRider wrote: post #56
VvR-Ox wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THAT is exactly the problem: OUR SYSTEM doesn't care how happy you are, as long as you're productive enough for some people to get rich. No one cares if you have a job, if you are homeless or have to suffer poverty. OUR SOCIETY values power and wealth (at least here in the west, I heard about other countries who don't do this so dedicated). If you're poor, sick or have no job than there is even people who'd argue for…

“No one cares if you have a job, if you are homeless or have to suffer poverty.” What on earth is this comment. Where do you live in “the west”? Western societies are structured around redistribution which ensures that most people are looked after (nothing is perfect). Your rhetoric is baffling.

Maybe you should get out of your ivory castle, look around and show some empathy for your fellow human beings. There's people living on highway on-ramp embankments and Skid Row in LA almost doubled within the past decade. You don't seem to see that there's a lot of people hurting because they're broke from automation and productivity gains, like the rest of the neoliberal inequality denialists.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#72

Post by heyjudy »

VvR-Ox wrote: post #68
lm28469 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homeless people and people living on social wellfare are seen as a pest pretty much everywhere in western societies. https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-containment-plan/ That's a top city in one of the most powerful / rich country in the world, you don't have to look very far to find other examples.

Thank you for this article. People should open their eyes and at least read stuff like this to check with their self constructed reality. Seems some of them live in a dome where you can't see all of this development. Nice for them - I could cry sometimes because it's so unfair.

Come to the SF Bay Area and drive around the highways or take a long-distance railway ride: there are hundreds to thousands of people living rough. It's like a diffuse favela, and most people don't care and a number of people actively hate people, and express violence, for them being poor. This is the result of Nixon and Reagan defunding JFK's community-based mental healthcare centers because they couldn't, or didn't want to, relate to people in different circumstances.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#73

Post by NeedMoreTea »

heyjudy wrote: post #72
VvR-Ox wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for this article. People should open their eyes and at least read stuff like this to check with their self constructed reality. Seems some of them live in a dome where you can't see all of this development. Nice for them - I could cry sometimes because it's so unfair.

Come to the SF Bay Area and drive around the highways or take a long-distance railway ride: there are hundreds to thousands of people living rough. It's like a diffuse favela, and most people don't care and a number of people actively hate people, and express violence, for them being poor. This is the result of Nixon and Reagan defunding JFK's community-based mental healthcare centers because they couldn't, or didn't…

Ironically it was Nixon who came within days of a speech announcing UBI. He saw adequate welfare as a thoroughly Republican thing to provide. Only after he was lobbied with evidence based upon lies did he relent.

First link search turned up: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/05/richard-nixon-ubi-basic-i...

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#74

Post by mcv »

dreen wrote: post #63
mcv wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe unpopular jobs need to be improved, rather than have unwilling people forced into them.

How would you improve a job like shelf stacking? Or cleaning streets? Or digging ditches? What improvements do you have in mind?

If nobody wants to do them, better pay. Also maybe more time for breaks, better support, etc. It depends on what the problems with the job are. If nobody wants to do a certain job that we need, figure out why and fix the problem. If it's a job we don't need, eliminate it.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#75

Post by dreen »

mcv wrote: post #74
dreen wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you improve a job like shelf stacking? Or cleaning streets? Or digging ditches? What improvements do you have in mind?

If nobody wants to do them, better pay. Also maybe more time for breaks, better support, etc. It depends on what the problems with the job are. If nobody wants to do a certain job that we need, figure out why and fix the problem. If it's a job we don't need, eliminate it.

Its jobs we need done but that are also borderline demeaning. Something machines should do. Some people still want to do them, but I would not, no matter the break time. Paying more would be good, but there is a limit to that.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#76

Post by NeedMoreTea »

dreen wrote: post #75
mcv wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If nobody wants to do them, better pay. Also maybe more time for breaks, better support, etc. It depends on what the problems with the job are. If nobody wants to do a certain job that we need, figure out why and fix the problem. If it's a job we don't need, eliminate it.

Its jobs we need done but that are also borderline demeaning. Something machines should do. Some people still want to do them, but I would not, no matter the break time. Paying more would be good, but there is a limit to that.

It could be as simple as permitting such "demeaning" roles outside of zero hours contracts, with more flexibility for the employee to work around childcare. Right now all the flexibility is for the benefit of the employer.

When the kids were young, SO looked to find something, almost anything part time, so long as it fit around the needs of the children and schools. We were both surprised at how limited those choices were and how often they required some hours commitment that guaranteed they could not coexist with raising young children.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#77

Post by mcv »

dreen wrote: post #75
mcv wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If nobody wants to do them, better pay. Also maybe more time for breaks, better support, etc. It depends on what the problems with the job are. If nobody wants to do a certain job that we need, figure out why and fix the problem. If it's a job we don't need, eliminate it.

Its jobs we need done but that are also borderline demeaning. Something machines should do. Some people still want to do them, but I would not, no matter the break time. Paying more would be good, but there is a limit to that.

I tend to be very free-market about this. If nobody wants to do them, we shouldn't be forcing people to, we should make them more attractive. If they're borderline demeaning, make them less demeaning. If that's not possible and machines can do it, let machines do it. Otherwise increase pay. At some point either someone will do it, we'll find a better way, or we'll conclude it's not that necessary after all.

If people are willing to do these jobs, then there's no problem.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#78

Post by dingaling »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #49
pikzel wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But as someone else has to pay for their free money, the perceived happiness needs to be quantified.

That's one thing that keeps getting omitted in these things. I don't believe that current unemployment benefits are just as expensive as "just" giving everyone the same amount of money. Plus if it has to be a minimal living income - like minimum wage once was supposed to be - it would have to be higher to cover rent, food, and other mandatory expenses in most places. Or is the idea to adjust it according to where peo…

Current unemployment benefits have significant administrative overhead such as eligibility testing, forms to send and receive, staff who meet with the individuals each week to ensure that they are achieving their required job application targets, additional staff to handle appeals, paper by the ream, printer toner, heating & office space... and only then can the money be disbursed.

UBI in contrast just moves money to bank accounts.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#79

Post by Svoka »

hannob wrote: post #27

This whole study is a tragedy. They made a study on a basic income, it cost huge amounts of money, and it was build to fail by declaring a stupid goal. The other results look quite promising, but I tried looking into the data and unfortunately it's very weak. They made only questionaires and the return rates were very low, so it doesn't say much. They had really stupid mistakes in the report (confusing p-values and c…

why do you think it failed? IMO - it succeeded. In face of skeptics who told that people won't do anything, people on UBI still found jobs as often as those who didn't have it.
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