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Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

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Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#61

Post by NeedMoreTea »

mcv wrote: post #50
skocznymroczny wrote: post #13

Can anyone explain to me, with basic income, why wouldn't I want to sit at home all day and play videogames?

Why would someone who inherits money not sit home all day and play videogames? Why would someone with sizable investments not sit home and play videogames? There are already people who receive free money, and nobody seems to worry about what they do with their time. In general, most people seem to think more money is better for them, so they work to increase the amount of money they get. One of the ideas behind basic…

With an additional dose of "so what if they do"? If a few want to sit at home on some low amount of weekly money playing games, so what. Most people will want more out of life and in the bank.

It will lead to far fewer falling out of the system entirely thanks to the expense of forms, proof and means testing for benefits (this is well shown), but will also eliminate fractional claiming rates. Means testing and claiming has been shown time and again to put some off claiming at all, perhaps through pride or the current intentional systematised stigma of benefits, even sheer exhaustion from 2 years of seeking work in late 50s to 2,000x rejections.

So we end up with a two tier unemployment system: those in receipt of unemployment, and those who've fallen out of the system entirely or were never in it. I'd rather help those with long term issues as well and have no one fall through the gaps to food bank or suicide.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#62

Post by lm28469 »

askmike wrote: post #44
VvR-Ox wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THAT is exactly the problem: OUR SYSTEM doesn't care how happy you are, as long as you're productive enough for some people to get rich. No one cares if you have a job, if you are homeless or have to suffer poverty. OUR SOCIETY values power and wealth (at least here in the west, I heard about other countries who don't do this so dedicated). If you're poor, sick or have no job than there is even people who'd argue for…

> If you're poor, sick or have no job than there is even people who'd argue for mercy killing you as not being strong enough for our good society. Where do you meet people who argue for that? I Have never heard that outside of (very) dystopian novels.

Homeless people and people living on social wellfare are seen as a pest pretty much everywhere in western societies.

https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-containment-plan/

That's a top city in one of the most powerful / rich country in the world, you don't have to look very far to find other examples.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#63

Post by dreen »

mcv wrote: post #52
dreen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people would prefer welfare than a job like that, even if the job meant more money.

Maybe unpopular jobs need to be improved, rather than have unwilling people forced into them.

How would you improve a job like shelf stacking? Or cleaning streets? Or digging ditches? What improvements do you have in mind?

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#64

Post by mario0b1 »

skocznymroczny wrote: post #13

Can anyone explain to me, with basic income, why wouldn't I want to sit at home all day and play videogames?

>why wouldn't I want to sit at home all day and play videogames?

Because having something you can live for is a basic psychologic need that everyone has. Aswell as social acknowledgement

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#65

Post by Phenix88be »

candiodari wrote: post #55
kome wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, why not? If that makes you happy, with UBI, you can withdraw from society. But I bet that after a while, also videogames will get boring. You will feel the need to do something outside. Be it some volunteering, just to meet people, or a job you love. Without the need to be profitable, the tyranny of profit. It wouldn't be that bad, right?

Surely you can't see withdrawing from society as a good thing. I mean seriously, why would society support that ? Also: I've seen people do this at university. I seem to recall that people who truly withdrew didn't do well at all, with some exceptions. People who withdrew into the theory, or into student life, at the expense of other things did much better.

> Surely you can't see withdrawing from society as a good thing. I mean seriously, why would society support that ?

Why not ? I would retreat in the middle of the forest with minimal technology if I could afford it (yes this life style cost money nowadays). People are the one who get you in trouble in the first place and avoiding having too much people in your life reduce the troubles and can give you peace.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#66

Post by VvR-Ox »

SeaSeaRider wrote: post #56
VvR-Ox wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THAT is exactly the problem: OUR SYSTEM doesn't care how happy you are, as long as you're productive enough for some people to get rich. No one cares if you have a job, if you are homeless or have to suffer poverty. OUR SOCIETY values power and wealth (at least here in the west, I heard about other countries who don't do this so dedicated). If you're poor, sick or have no job than there is even people who'd argue for…

“No one cares if you have a job, if you are homeless or have to suffer poverty.” What on earth is this comment. Where do you live in “the west”? Western societies are structured around redistribution which ensures that most people are looked after (nothing is perfect). Your rhetoric is baffling.

I live in Europe and see how things go down the sewer here. Why can't you?

As a child people had enough money for a good end of life and now they crawl around and collect food and other stuff from waste containers.

Also statistics clearly shows this development. Look at stuff like this (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/21/world-26-ri...) and tell me what you think about that please.

What's baffling about that, can you further explain it to me?

> Western societies are structured around redistribution which ensures that most people are looked after

Do you live in Disneyland?

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#67

Post by VvR-Ox »

SeaSeaRider wrote: post #57
askmike wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're poor, sick or have no job than there is even people who'd argue for mercy killing you as not being strong enough for our good society. Where do you meet people who argue for that? I Have never heard that outside of (very) dystopian novels.

I think he might be a russian troll?

I think you just try to disqualify my valid arguments because you don't want to see what is happening around here.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#68

Post by VvR-Ox »

lm28469 wrote: post #62
askmike wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're poor, sick or have no job than there is even people who'd argue for mercy killing you as not being strong enough for our good society. Where do you meet people who argue for that? I Have never heard that outside of (very) dystopian novels.

Homeless people and people living on social wellfare are seen as a pest pretty much everywhere in western societies. https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-containment-plan/ That's a top city in one of the most powerful / rich country in the world, you don't have to look very far to find other examples.

Thank you for this article. People should open their eyes and at least read stuff like this to check with their self constructed reality.

Seems some of them live in a dome where you can't see all of this development. Nice for them - I could cry sometimes because it's so unfair.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#69

Post by heyjudy »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #7
perfunctory wrote: post #2

I find this title a good example of framing. From the article: "On the basis of an analysis of register data on an annual level, we can say that during the first year of the experiment the recipients of a basic income were no better or worse than the control group at finding employment in the open labor market" So you can say "free money didn't help people find jobs", or you could say "free money didn't discourage pe…

It's even better than that! The title the authors of the study put on their press release is: "Preliminary results of the basic income experiment: self-perceived wellbeing improved, during the first year no effects on employment"[0] So not only does Bloomberg frame it like the doomsday prediction that everyone would turn into idlers never happened, the significant increase in mental health is just quietly sidestepped…

It's Bloomberg's libertarianism/anarcho-capitalism agenda pushing.

Re: Free Money Didn’t Help People Find Jobs, Finland Says

#70

Post by gus_massa »

mcv wrote: post #50
skocznymroczny wrote: post #13

Can anyone explain to me, with basic income, why wouldn't I want to sit at home all day and play videogames?

Why would someone who inherits money not sit home all day and play videogames? Why would someone with sizable investments not sit home and play videogames? There are already people who receive free money, and nobody seems to worry about what they do with their time. In general, most people seem to think more money is better for them, so they work to increase the amount of money they get. One of the ideas behind basic…

> Why would someone who inherits money not sit home all day and play videogames?

Because it is better to go to the beach during the day and the parties at night!

A more respectable position is to become the president of your family foundation and go to charity dinners and pretend you care for something.

There are plenty of case where someone create a big business, and when he/she dies the children or grandchildren just spend all the money and the business colapses due to stupidity or laziness (or it is sold).

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