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Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

cbc.ca

121–130 of 140 posts

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#121
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allowing airlines to oversell has the effect, in a competitive market, of reducing ticket prices for everyone else. Put another way: banning oversell would mean that airlines routinely travel with more empty seats. This inefficiency would show through in higher ticket prices. > In fact, it would be considered fraud. Fraud involves deception. This doesn't apply in a market environment where it is widely known that the…

I don't know who you work for . But you care too much about corporate profits and not enough about humans

I'm not employed in any related industry. I do travel for work, so if anything I'm more impacted on the consumer side as a frequent traveller.

However, the consumer has voted, again and again, for cheaper airline tickets over anything else. If that's what they want, then banning overselling would be contrary to that as it would cause ticket prices to rise.

I live in the EU and am quite happy with the current statutory compensation arrangements here.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#122

Is this only a North American thing? I've flown hundreds of times within Europe over the last few years, and every single time I've had a seat assigned at online check in, usually 24-72hrs before boarding depending on airline. I've seen lines of standby passengers at Frankfurt, waiting at the gate just in case they get lucky at the last minute, but knowing in advance that they don't have a seat on that plane unless s…

It happened to me on flight to Krakow (polish LOT) for example. I had a boarding pass, and only at the gate I was told the plane is overbooked and I can't go (plus 2 other passengers). Plans well ruined. It is a pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed. I am saddened that in a place like EU this is still not tackled properly. The compensation for messed up plans is pathetic and clearly not punishing enough t…

> It is a pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed

No. The number of pax that show up is somewhat random, the number of seats on the plane is somewhat random (weight and balance, broken oxygen mask or seatbelt, higher priority pax such as crew that need to be ferried to a flight that could not otherwise go, etc.)

To always plan such that the highest possible number of pax is smaller or equal to the lowest possible number of seats available is wasteful.

Why don't people understand that an airline operates under different constraints than a bus company or a train operator? In a plane, you can't just have a few more people sit in the aisle.

Now, like any stochastic problem, you assign weights to both suboptimal outcomes (empty seats, bumped pax), and optimise, which leads to modest overbooking. Now, most of the time everyone gets along (and more people than without modest overbooking), and sometimes some people are denied boarding. Some people need to be at a certain place at a certain time, and some people don't care if they're a day or two late. So you ask for volunteers and compensate.

It's not only perfectly rational, but also perfectly moral.

Why don't you get upset that people ever have to wait for surgery? Why don't we double the number of doctors and hospitals, so that always anytime someone needs surgery they can immediately get it? Well, because it's prohibitively expensive, and it's much more efficient to keep the facilities utilised as fully as possible, and shift around the demand (patients) a bit. Is that a deplorable strategy based on pure greed? No, it's a sensible optimisation to utilise scarce resources as well as we can.

Talking of greed, do you know how to make a small fortune in aviation? Easy, start with a big fortune.

Of course, regulation could make bumping pax even more expensive and thus change the calculation. That would probably lead to higher ticket prices and more (but emptier) planes in the air. Is that preferable to the current "pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed"?

EDIT to add: This is assuming decent communication, and decent compensation for bumped pax (as is the case in Europe). I'm not really familiar with the situation in Northern America, if they just bump pax without compensation and/or lie to them, that's clearly not good, either.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#123
post #52

It's been discussed on HN before [1], but it's worth mentioning in this thread that there's a YC-backed company – Volantio – working to solve this specific problem. Most airlines' position is that they have to oversell flights, otherwise planes will fly with empty seats unnecessarily. But from passengers' point of view, there aren't always enough people who'll voluntarily accept an offer to transfer to a different fl…

> Most airlines' position is that they have to oversell flights, otherwise planes will fly with empty seats unnecessarily. With most fares nowadays being non-refundable, why should the airlines care whether the seat is empty or not? It's paid for. If it's empty, that's a bonus because they save a little bit of fuel, time at the gate, and the passengers adjacent to the empty seat have a better experience. Empty seats…

(Some) Airlines make money selling to passengers. For example - Ryanair’s entire business model revolves around selling you extras.

No passenger, no profit.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#124
post #118
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Right Answer is for the airlines to sell two different ticket classes: guaranteed seats, which may not be oversold, and standby seats, which can be. That way everyone knows what they're getting.

Standby seats will just jam up the airport and security. Most shoppers will search for the cheapest flight, the airline will sell it as a bargain with the requisite disclaimers that no one reads, and when 100 standby ticket holders show up to the airport all hell will break lose. Do remember you can't pass security without a confirmed seat. They can't load your luggage without you being confirmed and through security…

> Standby seats will just jam up the airport and security.

No more than they do now. The only difference between what I'm proposing and what is currently done is that the people who get bumped if too many people show up "volunteer" ahead of time.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#125
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But from passengers' point of view, there aren't always enough people who'll voluntarily accept an offer to transfer to a different flight once they are at the gate awaiting boarding There are; they just won't accept any offer. Most of the airline offers I have been offered in this situation were paltry: reschedule and some airline "credit". Give me a partial or full refund, and I'll be much more willing to volunte…

I've seen some very lucrative offers. Like $500 credit, upgrade to first class tomorrow, AND a 4-star hotel room. That might not be the norm, but that's a pretty amazing deal.

There was a story a little while back that claims that customers may not actually get those credits. Basically, this guy only got it because the media picked up on it. https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-canada-reneges-on-compe...

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#126
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It happened to me on flight to Krakow (polish LOT) for example. I had a boarding pass, and only at the gate I was told the plane is overbooked and I can't go (plus 2 other passengers). Plans well ruined. It is a pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed. I am saddened that in a place like EU this is still not tackled properly. The compensation for messed up plans is pathetic and clearly not punishing enough t…

> It is a pathetic, deplorable strategy based on pure greed No. The number of pax that show up is somewhat random, the number of seats on the plane is somewhat random (weight and balance, broken oxygen mask or seatbelt, higher priority pax such as crew that need to be ferried to a flight that could not otherwise go, etc.) To always plan such that the highest possible number of pax is smaller or equal to the lowest po…

> So you ask for volunteers and compensate.

I've never experienced the process of asking passengers who wants to stay. Only finding out at the gate at the last moment. Also seen it happened to many other travelers while I passed through - finding out their ticket won't get you through the gate - shocked, frustrated, pissed off. You seem to be an airline apologist, maybe an insider? Or you just never faced the situation described?

Way too many wrong/incorrect statements in your post to cover all of those, and tons of whataboutism. But at least some:

> Why don't people understand that an airline operates under different constraints than a bus company or a train operator?

Why oh why... should I care? Its a public transport offering, nothing more or special. It certainly doesn't give them some extra credit so they can act amorally to maximize profits.

> To always plan such that the highest possible number of pax is smaller or equal to the lowest possible number of seats available is wasteful.

By your logic, we should all be transferred like a cattle, since it would be way more efficient, and who cares about treating customers with basic dignity when you can optimize, right?

Bottom line - my opinion is airlines should pay extra to people they on purpose deny boarding due to overbooking compared to other causes, only because their wonderful analytical methods and systems screwed up again. In all my overbooking experiences, the compensation was too small to even cover additional expenses I had to pay to cover for the mess created by airlines. And how do you compensate stress, frustration, missed opportunities, reduced time for vacation etc on top of that? Also the process of retrieval compensation is often as complicated as possible, ie that LOT took quite a few calls to their support to send me a 'secret' link you simply can't find on their website, and it took more than 2 months to get money after filling it. It was even an EU regulation breach, but do you think anybody at airline cared? At least some other airlines were more direct.

How do you apologize the fact they let you roll through check in, but send you home/to hotel only at the gate? It is really a wonderful experience, apparently you might benefit from that humiliation a bit and see things from customer's perspective.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#127
post #82

On topic: Depends on where you are. I was on an overbooked flight with WOW in Iceland a few months back, they ultimately ended up getting me a seat, but there is sometime about compensation if they can't get you on a flight within X number of hours as a result of the fault of the airline. I'll try to dig it up again... Somewhat unrelated but I had a terrible time with Air Canada a couple weeks ago for a YUL > EWR fli…

Basically don’t buy liquids duty free these days. There’s too much that can happen to make you end up with a liter or so of booze and now you need to pass through security.

As for security, many checkpoints allow you to pass with liquor in surplus of the normal amounts if you're on an international journey and it's still in the tamper-evident bag.

Eg, from the TSA[0]:

> You may carry duty free liquids in secure, tamper–evident bags, more than 3.4 oz or 100 ml in your carry-on bag if:

>

> * The duty free liquids were purchased internationally and you are traveling to the United States with a connecting flight.

> * The liquids are packed in a transparent, secure, tamper-evident bag by the retailer and do not show signs of tampering when presented to TSA for screening.

> * The original receipt for the liquids is present and the purchase was made within 48 hours.

And the EU[1][^2]:

> * EU duty free liquids which have been obtained at EU airports or on board of an aircraft of an EU carrier on condition that they are packed in packed in security tamper-evident bag (STEB), inside which proof of purchase at airside at that airport on that day is displayed, as recommended by International Civil Aviation Organization ;

> * duty-free liquids purchased at certain airports in Croatia, Malaysia, Singapore or at international airports in Canada or the U.S on condition that they are packed in a STEB inside which satisfactory proof of purchase at airside at that airport within the preceding 36 hours is displayed.

I don't believe the gate agent should have allowed the GP to keep the duty-free items (they should have been held until they were on their next flight). I would have found a member of the airline staff ASAP.

And obviously, these don't cover all scenarios. They're likely fine for the vast majority of the travelling public.

[0]: https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/liquids-rule

[1]: https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air/security/aviation-s...

[^2]: With flights directly from Australia now feasible, the second part of this section should probably be updated.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#128
post #97
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This used to work in the past in the US. But last 5 years or so, every single time I've asked this with major carriers in the US, I've been quoted similarly high change fees as well.

Did you use the word 'change' or 'standby'?

"Change".

Good point. I'll keep that in mind the next time!

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#129
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect it's rarer in Europe because the mandatory compensation costs of failing to put a passenger on a flight close to the originally scheduled time are so high. That said, I've had a gate agent try very hard to bump me off an intra-EU flight which I assume was due to overbooking (I was on business, so I expect they bumped a later arrival with a more expensive ticket instead...)

In the EU airlines have to compensate passengers who are denied boarding if the reason is that the flight is overbooked: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-right... The same applies for flights cancelled for operational reasons, and the airlines may end up having to book tickets with one of their competitors if the competitor have seats available.

> In the EU

Ah. So presumably, as a Brit, I can look forward to a new influx of shitty business practices starting in six weeks' time. Yay.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#130
Overselling is very common, especially with certain airlines on certain routes.

For example, British Airways heavily oversells their LHR-USA flights in business, premium economy, and economy. This often means that business class passengers get upgrades to F, premium economy fills business and if necessary, they can bring economy passengers forward.

This strategy works for them because they have a ton of very large planes on some routes that can go through spurts of heavy loads.

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