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Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

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Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#111

Post by mattkrause »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #100

I am not sure how much article is misrepresenting the seriousness. I travel air Canada 30+ times a year. GTE strictly means what it says - you don't have seat assigned and you may get one at the gate. They cannot help you at the checkin until they know who all is boarding. So from that perspective strictly, I understand that sending them to gate to await their destiny,rather than try to resolve at the checkin counter…

> you may get one at the gate.

There’s a world of difference between “your seat will be assigned at the gate” and “your seat may be....” The former, which is what I think most airlines actually say, strongly implies that you do have a seat, though they are still determining which one it is. The latter is often what they really mean.

If you are reasonably savvy, the fact that this is unusual ought to clue you in. However, that signal now is a bit diluted with all of the games airlines play to get you to pay extra to choose a seat so....

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#112

Post by mattkrause »

refurb wrote: post #42
cameldrv wrote: post #39

I've had an extremely bad experience with Air Canada that's eerily consistent with this article. Upgrade to business at the ticket counter, assigned seats, and then a red light and a sad noise from the ticket machine when I tried to board. Then a torrent of excuses, blame shifting, and rude behavior. This really soured me on Air Canada.

As a Canadian who flies a lot, Air Canada has absolutely the worst customer service. They make the “crappy” American carriers (United, etc) seem luxurious by comparison. I remember one time connecting in to Vancouver and asking if I could could jump on the earlier flight rather than waiting 3 hours. Done this multiple times with US carriers if there is room. What do they care if the seat would have been empty otherwi…

Air Canada did that for me once for free.

It might depend on how (over)sold the flights are. If your original flight is oversold and the other one is not, it seems like a win-win situation.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#113

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

lisper wrote: post #65
dominicr wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if a seat is sold twice but only used one that's more profit than if every seat is only sold once. Most businesses maximise profits, not passenger experience (and those that work on passenger experience do so because they've decided that's their way to increase profits and they'll do so in a cost effective way). Airlines say that this means all the seats on a flight can be a bit cheaper as the cost of operati…

> Because if a seat is sold twice but only used one that's more profit than if every seat is only sold once. Well, yeah, but that badly misses the point. Selling any product twice is more profitable than selling it only once, all else being equal. But in most industries, selling the same product twice is considered unacceptable. In fact, it would be considered fraud. The story that the airlines tell to make people th…

In most industries, selling the same product twice is considered unacceptable.

Not necessarily.

There are a lot of businesses which sell you a service assuming some "average" load. Web hostings, insurance companies for example.

That's even before I start whinging about my monthly train ticket.

But in pretty much any profession there's a chance of a promise not been met. If that happened I would expect an apology, and some kind of a remediation. For extra credit a small token of appreciation would also be nice.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#114

Post by refurb »

dannyw wrote: post #97
TomVDB wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This used to work in the past in the US. But last 5 years or so, every single time I've asked this with major carriers in the US, I've been quoted similarly high change fees as well.

Did you use the word 'change' or 'standby'?

They have a point, I think a United now charges $75 just to go on standby for an earlier flight.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#115

Post by stubish »

FearNotDaniel wrote: post #67

Is this only a North American thing? I've flown hundreds of times within Europe over the last few years, and every single time I've had a seat assigned at online check in, usually 24-72hrs before boarding depending on airline. I've seen lines of standby passengers at Frankfurt, waiting at the gate just in case they get lucky at the last minute, but knowing in advance that they don't have a seat on that plane unless s…

I hit an overbooked flight in Europe last year (Air France, intercontinental flight out of Paris). I suspect it happens a lot less than in North America, because there is a mandatory payment of 600 Euro per passenger if you get to the departure gate but are denied boarding to the plane. There may be other mandatory requirements depending on how quickly they can get you to your destination. I got a few hours delay and an alternate, non-direct flight via a non-allied airline.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#116

Post by digianarchist »

mruts wrote: post #84
deathanatos wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But from passengers' point of view, there aren't always enough people who'll voluntarily accept an offer to transfer to a different flight once they are at the gate awaiting boarding There are; they just won't accept any offer. Most of the airline offers I have been offered in this situation were paltry: reschedule and some airline "credit". Give me a partial or full refund, and I'll be much more willing to volunte…

I've seen some very lucrative offers. Like $500 credit, upgrade to first class tomorrow, AND a 4-star hotel room. That might not be the norm, but that's a pretty amazing deal.

I was pulled off an Ethiad flight in Abu Dhabi back in 2011. They gave be a night in a 4-star hotel, 3 free meals and $300 in credit which never got used.

They were asking everyone and most people refused. I should have bartered harder to get an upgrade to business.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#117

Post by majortennis »

rlpb wrote: post #87
lisper wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because if a seat is sold twice but only used one that's more profit than if every seat is only sold once. Well, yeah, but that badly misses the point. Selling any product twice is more profitable than selling it only once, all else being equal. But in most industries, selling the same product twice is considered unacceptable. In fact, it would be considered fraud. The story that the airlines tell to make people th…

Allowing airlines to oversell has the effect, in a competitive market, of reducing ticket prices for everyone else. Put another way: banning oversell would mean that airlines routinely travel with more empty seats. This inefficiency would show through in higher ticket prices. > In fact, it would be considered fraud. Fraud involves deception. This doesn't apply in a market environment where it is widely known that the…

I don't know who you work for . But you care too much about corporate profits and not enough about humans

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#118

Post by yardie »

lisper wrote: post #108
rlpb wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allowing airlines to oversell has the effect, in a competitive market, of reducing ticket prices for everyone else. Put another way: banning oversell would mean that airlines routinely travel with more empty seats. This inefficiency would show through in higher ticket prices. > In fact, it would be considered fraud. Fraud involves deception. This doesn't apply in a market environment where it is widely known that the…

I think the Right Answer is for the airlines to sell two different ticket classes: guaranteed seats, which may not be oversold, and standby seats, which can be. That way everyone knows what they're getting.

Standby seats will just jam up the airport and security. Most shoppers will search for the cheapest flight, the airline will sell it as a bargain with the requisite disclaimers that no one reads, and when 100 standby ticket holders show up to the airport all hell will break lose.

Do remember you can't pass security without a confirmed seat. They can't load your luggage without you being confirmed and through security. If every flight on every airline tried this as SOP it would turn out really badly.

If you think I'm kidding check the news around a major holiday with inclement weather. Hoardes of people with standby tickets waiting in terminals, camping out in whatever floorspace they can find. Sounds pretty damn dystopian.

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#119

Post by majortennis »

rlpb wrote: post #106
martin_a wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Allowing airlines to oversell has the effect, in a competitive market, of reducing ticket prices for everyone else. No. You have to calculate for compensations for the people who have to be left behind because the flight was oversold. As you can read in the comments, those compensations can come in quite expensive. And rebooking passengers to other flights means that you can't sell that specific seat at the right p…

> You have to calculate for compensations for the people who have to be left behind because the flight was oversold. Sure, but factor those in and you still end up being able to offer cheaper ticket prices by overselling. It is clear that this is true from existing market behaviour. > You have 100 seats, you sell 100 tickets. People have to show up to fly with you, no refunds if you don't show up. That is one way of…

it's flagrant scamming , I don't know who's paying you to lobby for them but your goals aren't aligned with your fellow man

Re: Air Canada agents reveal overselling practices

#120

Post by yardie »

rlpb wrote: post #106
martin_a wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Allowing airlines to oversell has the effect, in a competitive market, of reducing ticket prices for everyone else. No. You have to calculate for compensations for the people who have to be left behind because the flight was oversold. As you can read in the comments, those compensations can come in quite expensive. And rebooking passengers to other flights means that you can't sell that specific seat at the right p…

> You have to calculate for compensations for the people who have to be left behind because the flight was oversold. Sure, but factor those in and you still end up being able to offer cheaper ticket prices by overselling. It is clear that this is true from existing market behaviour. > You have 100 seats, you sell 100 tickets. People have to show up to fly with you, no refunds if you don't show up. That is one way of…

> You can find it to be whatever you want, but it is legal and not fraud.

It's fraud and it's legal. Which is why the EU cracks down on it pretty hard with large settlements, fines, and the passing of passenger bill of rights. In this thread alone you see passengers offered $100s - $1000s in compensation. Do you think those airlines wanted to pay out compensation? Those fines are statute according to the terms of passenger rights, which you will find printed on the back of every ticket.

Just like speeding, most don't get caught. But just because they don't does not make it any less illegal.

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