Google terminated our business via our Google Play Developer Account • Hacker News Board

Re: Google terminated our business via our Google Play Developer Account

#141

Post by quink » Sat, Feb 09, 2019, 9:48 PM UTC

blihp wrote: post #90

quink wrote: post #29

And just for anyone who's crazy enough (edit: and I can see they’ve come out already in the comments here) to say that he deserved it because he associated with some non-reputable people... My Google account was entered as a recovery email address by someone else. Most likely because it was a single letter removed from an abbreviation of their real legal name. I got an email informing me of that fact and instantly di…

I presume my comment was one of the ones you were referring to. You just did what I was suggesting: you explain how your account was inappropriately (IMO, based on your explanation) shut down. These types of stories should be shared when Google/Apple are in the wrong. However, notice the complete lack of detail in the linked story re: the associated account that resulted in the termination. If one is going to claim t…

Seems you read neither the link, nor my comment.

The author of the story said he doesn’t know what the third party may or may not have done and Google didn’t provide an explanation. And I never said my account was shut down.

Re: Google terminated our business via our Google Play Developer Account

#142

Post by 43920 » Sat, Feb 09, 2019, 9:48 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #35

bad_user wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “ This ultimately hurts app stores ” Good, app stores need to die.

App stores are the least-unreliable mechanism I have to trust executable code. I don’t even enable JavaScript by default. Do you have an alternative trust mechanism that can’t be subverted via, for example, algorithmic voting?

I think there's a couple solutions to this. First, "trust" should depend on your own evaluation of the developer, based on metrics like how long their app has existed, customer reviews, what protections they have around handling data, etc. You have the ability to do a much better job evaluating trust than Apple or Google are likely to. But even beyond that, sandboxing needs to be made effective enough that even if you do install a malicious app, it doesn't matter. iOS actually does a really good job of this - apps are contained in their own sandbox, and have to get your permission to access any sensitive data, which you can easily choose to accept or deny. There are also limits on resources, and apps can't do much to your system unless you actively open them, which makes it really easy to escape from a bad app.

I know you mentioned disabling javascript, but browsers are also a really good example of this. Browsers run your code in a sandbox, and the rendering engine itself is sandboxed in case of bugs. As a result, you can pretty much visit any random website and know that it won't compromise your system - as far as I know, there haven't been any widespread attacks using browser vulnerabilities since sandoxing was introduced (except maybe Internet Explorer, which doesn't really count). The worst that can happen is that a browser tab starts using too many resources or doing something annoying (like autoplaying a video), and you can just close the tab and make it go away.

Re: Google terminated our business via our Google Play Developer Account

#143

Post by gerdesj » Sat, Feb 09, 2019, 9:49 PM UTC

qhwudbebd wrote: post #85

I note from the mention of £25k that you're probably in the UK. If you don't mind burning fifty quid or so, you might find it satisfying to use the small claims process to issue for a sensible (not super-inflated) estimate of damages. The below is not legal advice, but is written from personal experience. Try to leave a clear paper trail of your reasonableness: send a clear notice before action with a reasonable time…

Assume they win with probability 1

I would not assign that probability at all. The small claims system is actually designed to be fair! Going in all lawyered up is more likely to raise eyebrows and could be counter productive. The whole point is a quick and easy process with the minimum of fuss. You present your argument and they present theirs and a general test of reasonableness is applied. More Judge {Rinder|Judy} and less Rumpole of the Bailey.

Re: Google terminated our business via our Google Play Developer Account

#144

Post by elorant » Sat, Feb 09, 2019, 9:49 PM UTC

deanmoriarty wrote: post #107

Slightly off topic, but: My main problem in getting away from Google is: who will protect my email/phone accounts as well as Google does with GMail and Google Voice? Sadly, those are the main means of authentication for my multiple financial accounts (for most banks phone and emails are the only 2FA methods available). I am not worried about the privacy issues, I'm mostly worried about Google deciding to terminate my…

Realistically speaking a hacker has more incentives to attack GMail than any domainer. I'm not saying that Gandi or whoever is more secure than GMail, just that there are more chances that something goes south with the latter rather than the former.

Re: Google terminated our business via our Google Play Developer Account

#145

Post by virgilp » Sat, Feb 09, 2019, 9:50 PM UTC

arkitaip wrote: post #61

heptathorp wrote: post #51

> I had created a Google Developer Account simply so I could pass on the login details to my app developers who uploaded and updated the app via my account each time. Sounds like one of those developers was previously banned for violating ToS and Google suspects the author is the same person with a new account trying to evade the ban. Instead of sharing login details, the correct thing to do is add a user and give th…

Or maybe those devs were unfairly banned because another bullshit reason. Unfortunately we don't know because Google operates in the most opaque ways.

This is also what I find most infuriating. One should at least be able to receive compelling evidence of what lead to the banning decision, and get a fair chance to dispute it.

I understand Google doesn't want to give bad actors information that could help them avoid the counter-measures, but the side effects on people who are innocent or make minor errors are too severe. They could make the whole process lengthy, and require proper, detailed authentication to make sure it's different persons & companies each time - that adds enough cost to deter bad actors from using the "appeals" process, but it would save honest people from the frustration.

Re: Google terminated our business via our Google Play Developer Account

#146

Post by noonespecial » Sat, Feb 09, 2019, 9:51 PM UTC

detaro wrote: post #83

noonespecial wrote: post #27

The question I always have with this stuff is this: To attract developers, these platforms make some promises. A "review" process for supposed violations of TOS causing cancellations is always among them. But to me these "reviews" always seem either completely faked or some version of a lowest-level employee simply restating that the algo has made its choice and they are powerless. More incriminating is that every ti…

Where does Google promise that review process? The sign-up flow for a developer account doesn't appear to mention anything like it. Even if they did, fraud is a high barrier, it sometimes producing "bad" results that are reversed for PR reasons isn't enough. Given the case here, "A human has looked at the account and has confirmed that the only developer that has ever used it has been banned, this matches the criteri…

avip actually responded similarly below actually citing the relevant section of the TOS but got downvoted? Don't know why, this is perfectly valid.

I'd simply ask, can they very publicly offer a review process which is essentially a functionless placebo button or is that misleading enough to subject them to any liability at all?

Re: Google terminated our business via our Google Play Developer Account

#147

Post by qhwudbebd » Sat, Feb 09, 2019, 9:52 PM UTC

gerdesj wrote: post #143

qhwudbebd wrote: post #85

I note from the mention of £25k that you're probably in the UK. If you don't mind burning fifty quid or so, you might find it satisfying to use the small claims process to issue for a sensible (not super-inflated) estimate of damages. The below is not legal advice, but is written from personal experience. Try to leave a clear paper trail of your reasonableness: send a clear notice before action with a reasonable time…

Assume they win with probability 1 I would not assign that probability at all. The small claims system is actually designed to be fair! Going in all lawyered up is more likely to raise eyebrows and could be counter productive. The whole point is a quick and easy process with the minimum of fuss. You present your argument and they present theirs and a general test of reasonableness is applied. More Judge {Rinder|Judy}…

Yes, sorry, that was badly written: it was intended as "this is what happens in the worst case" rather than "this is guaranteed to happen".

Re: Google terminated our business via our Google Play Developer Account

#148

Post by on_and_off » Sat, Feb 09, 2019, 9:53 PM UTC

pizza wrote: post #44

rjknight wrote: post #23

It sounds like the problem is with the outsourced developers responsible for the app. It's their account which has been banned - for multiple violations of the ToS. Now, perhaps this is just over-zealous enforcement on Google's part, but it's also possible that these developers have created shady apps before, or are adding shady code to apps developed for others. The OP doesn't seem to know for certain what code is i…

Google has the burden of proof to show why they are guilty by mere association, but won't do it, likely because they don't want to reveal any information about how they determine who is violating the ToS. There should be greater transparency and a better appeals process, but there won't be. At the very least it doesn't seem that Google has thought of a better way to handle the scenario where an honest client relies u…

>Google has the burden of proof

no they don't; this is not a trial.

Re: Google terminated our business via our Google Play Developer Account

#149

Post by zmmmmm » Sat, Feb 09, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

This is awful and I feel terrible for them, but a lot of alarm bells went off when I read this:

    I then attempted to login to my ‘Google Developer Account’ for 
    the first time. Previous to this our app developers were the 
    only ones to access our account to upload and update our app for us

It sounds like they violated probably one of the first requirements of the ToS not to share account credentials. From there ... really anything goes as to what that developer could have done with those credentials intentionally or otherwise.

Google definitely needs to up their game here. Lifetime bans that are completely irrevocable are a completely unacceptable system for the #2 or #1 app distribution platform in the world. Such a ban should be a last resort after many, many transgressions and a result of extensive manual review, not handed out on an automatic basis. Nonetheless, developers need to do their part and also read and take serious the ToS of the developer agreements too.

Re: Google terminated our business via our Google Play Developer Account

#150

Post by sundvor » Sat, Feb 09, 2019, 9:55 PM UTC

j88439h84 wrote: post #80

coliveira wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see how you can not be reliant on Apple/Google. This is the very definition of a monopoly, isn't it? If the government was working properly, it would be ready to break up these companies, as well in other areas of oligopoly such as oil and banking.

Well, there's two of them.

Duopoly, then ogliopoly after that.