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Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org

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Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#71
post #65
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe that it was a unfair race so to speak. In my knowledge it were the German scientists who moved to US and helped US develop the bomb. US may have had the resources but it definitely lacked the knowledge for building bomb which German surely possessed.

Even had Germany somehow kept the knowledge, it had, at best, a very brief period of time between the beginning of the war and the period when its industrial capacity was being seriously strained, if not bombed almost continuously, to work on the weapon. The Nazi nuclear bomb project was also underfunded for political reasons, not to mention the fact it would have been very difficult to justify working on a blue-sky…

According to Wikipedia, "The German V-weapons (V-1 and V-2) cost the equivalent of around USD $40 billion (2015 dollars), which was 50 percent more than the Manhattan Project". That was super high-tech, blue-sky research, which in the end had almost zero military impact. It was not stopped by Allied bombing. It was done at the expense of more practical things, like tanks and planes, despite serious shortages of some of the ingredients (like fuel).

The Manhattan project indeed had a brain trust working on it, the like of which existed nowhere else on the planet. (Maybe more Hungarian than German, though.) Germany could not have replicated that, but it seems likely to me that the brains they did have would have been plenty.

There could have been some other roadblock of course, like the total lack of some material. But I don't know of one. IIRC the Soviets mined about half their Uranium in E Germany, so that was available.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#72
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It did not help that some new aspects found in physics were considered 'ungerman' ('Jewish physics') and discarded, especially Einstein's work and many aspects of quantum mechanics. This alone would probably have proved crippling to any efforts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik

Not necessarily. Ironically, nuclear explosion physics doesn’t use anything from quantum mechanics, nor from relativity. Intellectually, Germans were well-positioned to complete the project; thankfully, they didn’t have the necessary financial and engineering support.

Care to elaborate on that? Sounds rather surprising. In wikipedia on nuclear fission "quantum" is used 3 times: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fission - but I suspect that all of the nuclear physics is based on quantum mechanics isn't it?

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#73
post #13

What an interesting read. Also, is it just me or are there a surprising number of german related topics on the frontpage right now? "We only had one man working on it and they may have had ten thousand" This is why I always chuckle at the ww2 "documentaries" positing the possibility of german or japanese bomb. Nevermind that both parties were preoccupied fighting far stronger and larger opponents ( US, British Empire…

After the Germans surrendered my dad's division was scheduled to be transferred to the Pacific for the invasion of Japan. At least that is what they were told. He was happy to hear of the bombings on Nagasaki and Hiroshima since from his perspective it caused the Japanese to surrender. Of course it's debatable on whether or not those bombings did indeed cause the surrender of Japan. Politically the U.S. has not been…

>I don't know if the bombings were morally right or wrong and can see the argument both ways. But from at least one drafted soldier's perspective they were a good thing.

Soldiers volunteer to fight a war, civilians don't. If the Japanese had bombed LA, we wouldn't be having this conversation, every American would understand why this was morally wrong.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#74
post #65
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe that it was a unfair race so to speak. In my knowledge it were the German scientists who moved to US and helped US develop the bomb. US may have had the resources but it definitely lacked the knowledge for building bomb which German surely possessed.

Even had Germany somehow kept the knowledge, it had, at best, a very brief period of time between the beginning of the war and the period when its industrial capacity was being seriously strained, if not bombed almost continuously, to work on the weapon. The Nazi nuclear bomb project was also underfunded for political reasons, not to mention the fact it would have been very difficult to justify working on a blue-sky…

The Nazis loved blue-sky wonder weapons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-3_cannon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_163_Komet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerikabomber

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#75
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the Germans surrendered my dad's division was scheduled to be transferred to the Pacific for the invasion of Japan. At least that is what they were told. He was happy to hear of the bombings on Nagasaki and Hiroshima since from his perspective it caused the Japanese to surrender. Of course it's debatable on whether or not those bombings did indeed cause the surrender of Japan. Politically the U.S. has not been…

>I don't know if the bombings were morally right or wrong and can see the argument both ways. But from at least one drafted soldier's perspective they were a good thing. Soldiers volunteer to fight a war, civilians don't. If the Japanese had bombed LA, we wouldn't be having this conversation, every American would understand why this was morally wrong.

The question isn’t whether Americans would unambiguously view a fire bombing of LA as morally wrong. The question is would the Japanese view it as morally wrong? Of course the victims view it as wrong. Would the offenders?

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#76
post #63
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the part that people miss when discussing the nuclear attacks. It’s purpose was not tactical or military. It was a political purpose.

>. It’s purpose was not tactical or military. It was a political purpose. When people debate this issue, I find they tend to resort to a reductionist view of history and the players involved in order to justify their personal views of the US. The degree to which one is opposed to American cultural imperialism and military hegemony, or believes the US to be an evil state, tends to be the degree to which one believes t…

Yes I agree with what you write here. I don’t mean to suggest it was a purely political calculation. I mean to suggest that decisions can be militarily bad or irrelevant while still be necessary politically.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#77
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. Ironically, nuclear explosion physics doesn’t use anything from quantum mechanics, nor from relativity. Intellectually, Germans were well-positioned to complete the project; thankfully, they didn’t have the necessary financial and engineering support.

Care to elaborate on that? Sounds rather surprising. In wikipedia on nuclear fission "quantum" is used 3 times: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fission - but I suspect that all of the nuclear physics is based on quantum mechanics isn't it?

I think atemerev's point is that you can find out enough to build a bomb without knowing either relativity or quantum. Yes, E=mc^2 is why the energy is released, but all you need to know is how much energy is released when an atom splits. Yes, quantum mechanics may explain the neutron absorption cross section, but you don't need to know that. You just need to be able to measure the cross section.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#78
post #62
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The effort was indeed huge, but it's not so obvious that the Germans could not have done it. IIRC the V2 missile program may actually have been more expensive? Different technology but also hard... hard enough that in 1969 the same guys were still leading the world.

It did not help that some new aspects found in physics were considered 'ungerman' ('Jewish physics') and discarded, especially Einstein's work and many aspects of quantum mechanics. This alone would probably have proved crippling to any efforts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Physik

Yes, it probably wasn't terribly helpful either that the rejection of Jewish physicists, many of whom helped get the American bomb project off the ground, and rejection of physicists studying "Jewish Physics" left them with probably too few qualified physicists to move a bomb project along as rapidly as the Americans did, even if they had the budget for a project of that size (they didn't), and were willing to spend it early enough (no indication of that). Considering also that they would have had to move rather faster than the Americans, since they didn't finish before the defeat of Germany. Fortunately for the world, there are plenty of reasons why is was essentially impossible for them.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#79
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the Germans surrendered my dad's division was scheduled to be transferred to the Pacific for the invasion of Japan. At least that is what they were told. He was happy to hear of the bombings on Nagasaki and Hiroshima since from his perspective it caused the Japanese to surrender. Of course it's debatable on whether or not those bombings did indeed cause the surrender of Japan. Politically the U.S. has not been…

It isn't debatable because we know hiroshima and nagasaki had no bearing on the japanese decision to surrender. If the nukes were the cause of japan's surrender, hiroshima would have been enough and nagasaki wouldn't have happened. Also, there is no ambiguity to the morality of hiroshima or nagasaki. No more than there is any ambiguity to the morality of nazi death camps. They were both racially driven war crimes and…

After Hiroshima and the Russian invasion of Manchuria, but before Nagasaki, the Japanese army was preparing to impose martial law on Japan to prevent anyone from surrendering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#August_9:_S...

After Hiroshima, the Russian invasion of Manchuria, and Nagasaki, Japan still went through an attempted coup to try to prevent the surrender.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempted_m...

I think it's totally false to say "hiroshima and nagasaki had no bearing on the japanese decision to surrender". That doesn't match the evidence of history whatsoever.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#80
post #9

Such an amazing read. What positively surprised me, but perhaps shouldn't have, is that they seem almost relieved they didn't get there first. It's reassuring in a way I have trouble verbalising.

Some of them were relieved but some of them weren't. There was Gerlach's reaction described later in the document. " 7. HAHN and HEISENBERG discussed the matter alone together. HAHN explained to HEISENBERG that he was himself very upset about the whole thing. He said he could not really understand why GERLACH had taken it so badly. HEISENBERG said he could understand it because GERLACH was the only one of them who ha…

What an interesting exchange here! This really highlights an issue that we have been dealing with for these last 80 years: What to do when the leader is known to be unjust/evil?

Here we see that these very intelligent men all were patriots to their own people, despite their evil leader. But they all knew that this patriotism was misplaced and would make the world worse. They all knew that they should loose, despite their loyalty to their own people.

In the 8 decades since, have we come to a conclusion on how to deal with this? What is a person to do when the nation goes towards evil? Must we all go Capt. America on our own[0]?

The decisions of these cowards and their internal conflicts echo to this day.

[0]https://external-preview.redd.it/sORWym5kfi2NIanLWbz_0nWtqPP...

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