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Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#531

Post by 52-6F-62 »

hoaw2 wrote: post #528
52-6F-62 wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it needs to be that grand of a scale to fulfill the reasoning. OP's example was a fellow taking time off and exercising his other interests in electronics by learning and experimenting. Another example might be a hobby. A hobby is a great example of a leisure activity as its [usually] done completely for its own sake. For instance, a sheet metal worker who spends much of their time off work playing in a…

To take the example at hand, for many young(ish) people taking time off work to learn electronics wouldn't necessary be a nice experience. Because their lives exist to a large extent in relation to work. They have moved to a new city, because of work. Where the live in a small apartment, to be close to work. They have friends, from work. And they have coffee on their way to work, to talk about work or even to do work…

To me, your example sounds more like a lifestyle choice, my friend.

My advice to the person in question would be to pull your head out of work and sample a little more of that big city while you're paying so much to be there.

There's no reason why every moment of time that isn't paid for by work to be spent on work, outside of that being a choice (given our current example, which sounds like a well-enough-to-do tech worker).

Personally, I couldn't live that way, and I'm probably filling out a few of your checkboxes above. I like the people I work with, but I value [and fear] time too much to give it all into my job—be it tasks, networking, socializing, whatever.

The example you extended sounds more like a problem of agency than one of [a lack of] leisure.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#532

Post by imtringued »

supermw wrote: post #328
TeMPOraL wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people didn't have the choice you did.

My choices were nothing special: Pay attention in school, do my homework, get good grades, pick a meaningful hobby, don't drink or do drugs, don't beat up other kids for fun, read books, work in a retail store, stay away from drama, get into a decent college and choose a good major, do internships, network, pick up recommendations, get interviews at tech companies, get tech job, start paying debts, save and invest mo…

>get into a decent college and choose a good major

If by good major you mean computer science, then this choice alone is already extremely special. Only 3% of students choose computer science.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#533

Post by rock_hard »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #518
rock_hard wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I disclosed upfront: I am generalizing based on my personal expierence Please share you personal story too though so we get a better picture

Nah I'm from the US. I would just expect European culture to be at least as varied as US culture.

In some ways it is, in others it’s not. Much like the US really.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#534

Post by shanusmagnus »

hoaw wrote: post #336
shanusmagnus wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add alternate experience to the children of this post, I worked for a company w/ unlimited vacation, and while I took very little vacation, there was no pressure from outside to limit it. Other people tended to work less than I did and took vacation more or less in line with what they would have done elsewhere. I wouldn't take unlimited vacation as a sign of anything other than "we expect you to be reasonable and…

If you didn't take much vacation you basically cut your own salary by 10% compared to "limited vacation" though?

Good point, I suppose I did. When considered that way, I wonder of the option value of unlimited was worth it? Hmm.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#535

Post by hoaw3 »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #531
hoaw2 wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To take the example at hand, for many young(ish) people taking time off work to learn electronics wouldn't necessary be a nice experience. Because their lives exist to a large extent in relation to work. They have moved to a new city, because of work. Where the live in a small apartment, to be close to work. They have friends, from work. And they have coffee on their way to work, to talk about work or even to do work…

To me, your example sounds more like a lifestyle choice, my friend. My advice to the person in question would be to pull your head out of work and sample a little more of that big city while you're paying so much to be there. There's no reason why every moment of time that isn't paid for by work to be spent on work, outside of that being a choice (given our current example, which sounds like a well-enough-to-do tech…

> The example you extended sounds more like a problem of agency than one of [a lack of] leisure.

It is. But you can't just take time of work, not replace it with anything and expect to be able to have some sort of leisure. At least not in my experience. I don't live in a big city anymore, but that doesn't really fix things. The equation is as hard as in a city, just in a different way. That is why people like 'bunnie' who do electronics as a passion end up in Asia. There are just so much easier to live and so many more things to do. People who stay e.g. in the US end up moving around different small to medium size cities instead looking for something that makes sense.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#536

Post by imtringued »

philwelch wrote: post #35
gotocake wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealth redistribution is a choice of ethics. If you study world history you’ll quickly realize that it’s ultimately the choice of the mob with the torches and pitchforks. You’d be amazed at how disinterested they are in moral relativism or a chat about Atlas Shrugged. Personally I’d prefer a more equitable redistribution based on planning, rather than a redistribution based on plutocrats being put up against a wall.…

I mean, you can solve that problem with robots and technology, too. Revolting mobs of socialists can be dealt with pretty easily. (If you’re going to start threatening murder as the premise of your theory of justice, you’d best make sure your side would actually be the one doing the killing.)

>Revolting mobs of socialists can be dealt with pretty easily.

Yes indeed. The solution to the Luddite problem was basically to arrest them. Unemployed people are not a problem if they are in prison or dead.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#537

Post by imtringued »

gotocake wrote: post #259
danmaz74 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you study history, you also quickly learn that there were orders of magnitude more poor people killed by the rich and powerful than the other way around. Are mobs always morally in the right? Absolutely not. But neither the opposite is true.

If you study history, you also quickly learn that there were orders of magnitude more poor people killed by the rich and powerful than the other way around. Yes, but considering that there have always been orders of magnitude more poor people than rich and powerful people, your statement is effectively empty. More telling is that the rich and powerful get away with it, until they don’t. In France during the Revolutio…

>Yes, but considering that there have always been orders of magnitude more poor people than rich and powerful people, your statement is effectively empty.

What are you even talking about? The vast majority of minorities don't hold any power (especially not the power to kill the majority) precisely because there are so few of them and that's exactly the reason why they are oppressed. Rich people are an extremely special minority where this situation is reversed and they have power over the majority.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#538

Post by 52-6F-62 »

hoaw3 wrote: post #535
52-6F-62 wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, your example sounds more like a lifestyle choice, my friend. My advice to the person in question would be to pull your head out of work and sample a little more of that big city while you're paying so much to be there. There's no reason why every moment of time that isn't paid for by work to be spent on work, outside of that being a choice (given our current example, which sounds like a well-enough-to-do tech…

> The example you extended sounds more like a problem of agency than one of [a lack of] leisure. It is. But you can't just take time of work, not replace it with anything and expect to be able to have some sort of leisure. At least not in my experience. I don't live in a big city anymore, but that doesn't really fix things. The equation is as hard as in a city, just in a different way. That is why people like 'bunnie…

I think you're misunderstanding what I've been saying about leisure, then. I've not suggested you take time off work, nor to fill your time with nothing.

Work is additive, "free" time is not subtractive.

I don't understand any else of what you're saying. Electronics is something you can do anywhere, and I'd argue there's a gaping need in much of the spaces in between towns and cities in North America...

I think you're just discussing personal preferences at the end there.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#539

Post by abapologist »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #330
abapologist wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay isn’t connected to effort of labor though.

It also isn't connected to the value the job brings to society, or even to the long-term impact on the market economy.

This may be true as well. One thing money has going for it, versus impact on society, is that we can measure it.

Might not be a great metric, but we as a society have failed to invent and value a better one.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#540

Post by hoaw4 »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #538
hoaw3 wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The example you extended sounds more like a problem of agency than one of [a lack of] leisure. It is. But you can't just take time of work, not replace it with anything and expect to be able to have some sort of leisure. At least not in my experience. I don't live in a big city anymore, but that doesn't really fix things. The equation is as hard as in a city, just in a different way. That is why people like 'bunnie…

I think you're misunderstanding what I've been saying about leisure, then. I've not suggested you take time off work, nor to fill your time with nothing. Work is additive, "free" time is not subtractive. I don't understand any else of what you're saying. Electronics is something you can do anywhere, and I'd argue there's a gaping need in much of the spaces in between towns and cities in North America... I think you'r…

I guess it is hard to explain if you haven't experienced it.

It is just that doing electronics on the weekend when you are tired from work, you don't have enough time to finish even part of something, in a place where parts are expensive or you have to wait weeks for delivery isn't that enjoyable.

Doing electronics in a place where you don't have to worry about rent, you have plenty of time, there are plenty of other things to do, parts are cheap and there is a community is a totally different thing.

Far more people are going to enjoy the second scenario.

Here is an article about Shenzhen [0]. The middle part is about people doing electronics for fun. This is probably around a year before Scotty, in the article, started Strange Parts on youtube.

[0] https://www.popsci.com/shenzhen-china-global-community

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