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Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#511

Post by throwaway12JpuG »

sol_remmy2 wrote: post #231
arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

Western European countries hardly take immigrants. When you live in a homogenous, solely middle-class country like Sweden/Denmark/Norway, of course everything seems nice and comfortable. But America accepts some very poor immigrants and allows them to make money and be lifted up. Those are many of the people you saw on the bus.

I don't know about Sweden/Denmark/Norway but this is not true of the Western European country Germany. I'm an American living in Germany. It's shockingly easy to immigrate to here. It takes 5 years to get permanent residency. The process is humane and reasonable. More than half the people I work with are immigrants from all over the world. No one I've asked even considers moving to America because of the nearly non-existent social safety net, the expense of having children, the unwelcoming rhetoric about immigrants, and universally toxic experiences with American government officials (TSA, customs, etc.). That story about things are better in Europe because Europe is culturally homogeneous is not true in Germany. It's also true that there is new conflict/friction within German society because of the heterogeneity. But the presence of immigrants has not in any way made the country less "nice and comfortable". These qualities are the product of the society's belief that everyone should have a reasonable quality of life. People here make a choice to pay more taxes towards that aim and they do this because they believe in it.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#512

Post by 52-6F-62 »

hoaw wrote: post #477
52-6F-62 wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I get what you're saying, now. Sounds like more of a critique of North American/protestant work ethic coupled with our acclimating to convenience. I think that's probably a whole other subject to be tackled. Aristotle's core point above would be along the lines of: Relaxation (in order to) -> Work (in order to) -> Leisure (the goal, for its own sake) Leisure and relaxation being entirely different activities,…

Right. I am saying that if you take time off you end up being at odds with much of society. You realize that many things, even leisure activities, now only exists in relation to work. And after not working for a while few of these things are exciting anymore. So I am not saying it isn't a good idea. Just that it is hard from a practical perspective. Which is why younger people who take sabbaticals often end up in e.g…

I don't think it needs to be that grand of a scale to fulfill the reasoning.

OP's example was a fellow taking time off and exercising his other interests in electronics by learning and experimenting.

Another example might be a hobby. A hobby is a great example of a leisure activity as its [usually] done completely for its own sake. For instance, a sheet metal worker who spends much of their time off work playing in an amateur cricket league [however unlikely and obscure an image that might be].

I don't think I understand, though, how you mean it puts anyone at odds with society. Could you elaborate?

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#513

Post by malvosenior »

sigi45 wrote: post #509
malvosenior wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This still doesn't make it fair. You're not taking into account the thousands of hours people have to put in to learning how to program. That's real work and sacrifice. It's not unfair that that investment pays off.

But those people got the chance to do it. They got the lucky direction. They got the smarts, the parents who read to them, etc.

Maybe, maybe not (I know I didn't have all of those things). It's undeniable they had to work hard to become good programmers though.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#514

Post by moorhosj »

toasterlovin wrote: post #467
moorhosj wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

==Swedish white, non-Hispanic population: easily 90%+== Not only is this contention wrong [1], it is completely arbitrary. Ethnicity isn't just how you want to draw lines to prove some point. Sweden has multiple ethnicities within what you call "Swedish white, non-Hispanic". This is observed, most obviously, through different dialects and cultures. Swedes that border Norway are different than Swedes that border Finla…

And white people in the U.S. are also not homogeneous. So what? The U.S. has multiple metropolitan areas that each has a larger population and more ethnic diversity than the smaller European countries. And that's before you even consider the country as a whole.

==The U.S. has multiple metropolitan areas that each has a larger population and more ethnic diversity than the smaller European countries.==

Yes, but that was true when the US had a robust middle class (roughly 1940-2000). I haven't seen any evidence presented that proves demographic diversity is the reason for increased inequality.

Meanwhile, we can observe political decisions over the past 40 years which have had an impact on how worker productivity turns into wages. Examples are a lower the top income tax rate, a stagnant minimum wage, the explosion of stock-based compensation, weakening the estate tax, the weakening of unions, high healthcare costs, etc.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#515

Post by 0x262d »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #474
0x262d wrote: post #359

in 1847, Marx wrote Wage Labour and Capital, an accessible pamphlet that made the prediction that over time, the middle classes will be squeezed out of prosperity and the majority of people's wages will trend downwards, until they hit a fundamental low point: the minimum amount required to reproduce the next generation of workers. the key point is that this is completely endemic to capitalism, which is characterized…

> abolishing private ownership of capital and democratically allocating society's productive resources is the only solution. But attempts to do so have resulted in more suffering and death, rather than less. Maybe we don't need to solve it at that price. Or maybe there's a better solution than the one you propose.

have you considered that socialist countries are intentionally sabotaged and crushed, and mainstream understanding of the history about it is distorted, by people who don't want their wealth expropriated?

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#516

Post by amrx431 »

CalRobert wrote: post #199
arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

I work in tech. My wife does not. We came to the EU and I noticed that I make a good deal less, but she makes more. Even more important, though, instead of me getting lots of vacation time and her getting almost nothing, we both get a month off a year, protected by law (no bullshit "unlimited vacation" policy can take it away). We can finally take proper holidays together. Life is better here.

> Life is better here.

But Europe Socialism bad.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#517

Post by notfromhere »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #317
maratd wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans have been conditioned to depend on state support to the point of being unable to function without it. Not during times of duress. At all times. This creates dependency. You become a slave to the state. When you are a slave to the state, your only recourse for redress is violence. Paris is burning. New York is not.

> Paris is burning. New York is not. And Occupy movement happened on Mars.

If Paris is burning, New York is a room full of gasoline.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#518

Post by amanaplanacanal »

rock_hard wrote: post #417
amanaplanacanal wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you are assuming that your situation applies everywhere in Europe, which seems unlikely to me.

Like I disclosed upfront: I am generalizing based on my personal expierence Please share you personal story too though so we get a better picture

Nah I'm from the US. I would just expect European culture to be at least as varied as US culture.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#519

Post by AnimalMuppet »

0x262d wrote: post #515
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> abolishing private ownership of capital and democratically allocating society's productive resources is the only solution. But attempts to do so have resulted in more suffering and death, rather than less. Maybe we don't need to solve it at that price. Or maybe there's a better solution than the one you propose.

have you considered that socialist countries are intentionally sabotaged and crushed, and mainstream understanding of the history about it is distorted, by people who don't want their wealth expropriated?

Even were you correct, have you considered that this will also happen the next time socialism is tried?

That said, I will admit that there are almost certainly such attempts as you say, but I deny that they are the actual cause of the problems. The problem is that socialism doesn't work. The rich just give you a nice comic-book villain to explain away the real cause of the failures.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#520

Post by ScottBurson »

moreira wrote: post #418
sol_remmy2 wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those stats count an immigrant from any neighboring Western European country as foreign born. That makes them highly misleading compared to the US. In the US, a person from a different state does not count as an immigrant.

Of course not, but a state is not a country. Germany has 16 states, for example, and the statistics don't count people from different states as immigrants. However, a person from a neighbouring country (e.g. Mexico) would count as an immigrant in the US. Just because states are massive in the US doesn't make them equivalent to different countries in Europe, which all have their own language, ethnic background, and cu…

There may be more cultural distance between Austin and Houston than you think :-)
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