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Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#521

Post by toasterlovin »

moorhosj wrote: post #514
toasterlovin wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And white people in the U.S. are also not homogeneous. So what? The U.S. has multiple metropolitan areas that each has a larger population and more ethnic diversity than the smaller European countries. And that's before you even consider the country as a whole.

==The U.S. has multiple metropolitan areas that each has a larger population and more ethnic diversity than the smaller European countries.== Yes, but that was true when the US had a robust middle class (roughly 1940-2000). I haven't seen any evidence presented that proves demographic diversity is the reason for increased inequality. Meanwhile, we can observe political decisions over the past 40 years which have had…

> Yes, but that was true when the US had a robust middle class (roughly 1940-2000).

Not really. Non-hispanic whites + blacks made up 95% of the population as recently as 1970. As of 2010, those two groups combined make up only 75% of the population. There have been radical changes in the demography of the U.S. in the last 50-80 years.

I actually agree with you that changing demographics are not the whole story, but the fact that the U.S. has gone from one (black Americans) to two (added Latin American immigrants — now 16% of the population) racially delineated underclasses does a lot to undermine social cohesion.

Source for U.S. demographics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_d...

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#522

Post by nybble41 »

linkmotif wrote: post #465
lghh wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can’t make me feel ashamed of my father, who got my family out of poverty and didn’t even know how to order a beer or a meal at a restaurant until he was 55 because that’s just not how we spent money. I never asked you to feel ashamed for that. I'm asking that you don't require everyone go though the same struggles as revenge. Get this... I also think the people who are working to create the things that you are…

No I’m saying that things don’t fall from the sky. People make everything, and basic human dignity and justice demands that no one is just entitled to the fruits of someone else’s labor. The revenge tack you take is also misguided. This is all about basic human dignity and people feeling like they deserve all this stuff from workers the world over, just because they live in a first world country. Or just because they…

I agree with you when it comes to "no one is just entitled to the fruits of someone else's labor". Certainly there is no inherent right to health care, food, housing, or anything else produced and paid for at others' expense. However, you're really confusing the issue by throwing in "on the backs of second and third worlders". It is not their labor which is being taken in order to provide these "entitled" residents of first-world countries their free stuff. They are getting paid for their labor, at rates better than what they could otherwise obtain, and would be strictly worse off if the first-world countries insisted on buying only from those with first-world standards of living. That would eliminate their comparative advantage, and take away what is currently their best option to earn a living and improve their situation. The workers in countries with second- and third-world standards of living are actually the main beneficiaries of this middle-class sense of entitlement; it transfers money from consumers and taxpayers in first-world countries directly into their wallets. If anyone is in a position to complain about having the fruits of their labor stolen away it's the net taxpayers in the first world, the ones actually paying for this "free" food, housing, and health care out of their own earnings.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#523

Post by nybble41 »

barry-cotter wrote: post #226
pnutjam wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent's point was we have made those strides in productivity, but the wages were denied us.

Measured in 1960 US$ the UK’s GDP per capita was 1181[1]. In 2016 US$ U.K. GDP per capita was 40,341[2]. Even if we assume the 2016 dollar is worth half as much as the 1960 one because of inflation the average U.K. resident is 15 times better off. If people wanted to live in 1960s houses with what people in the 1960s would have considered a lavish standard of living they could do it easily by working half the year, o…

> Even if we assume the 2016 dollar is worth half as much as the 1960 one because of inflation...

Try one-eighth as much.

http://www.in2013dollars.com/1960-dollars-in-2016

> Converted amount ($100 base) $810.83

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#524

Post by moorhosj »

toasterlovin wrote: post #521
moorhosj wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

==The U.S. has multiple metropolitan areas that each has a larger population and more ethnic diversity than the smaller European countries.== Yes, but that was true when the US had a robust middle class (roughly 1940-2000). I haven't seen any evidence presented that proves demographic diversity is the reason for increased inequality. Meanwhile, we can observe political decisions over the past 40 years which have had…

> Yes, but that was true when the US had a robust middle class (roughly 1940-2000). Not really. Non-hispanic whites + blacks made up 95% of the population as recently as 1970. As of 2010, those two groups combined make up only 75% of the population. There have been radical changes in the demography of the U.S. in the last 50-80 years. I actually agree with you that changing demographics are not the whole story, but t…

==Non-hispanic whites + blacks made up 95% of the population as recently as 1970==

The large immigrant communities from Italy, Germany and Ireland were not considered "white" when they first came to the US. Only later did that occur as definitions of race have changed over time, usually to serve a political purpose.

==the fact that the U.S. has gone from one (black Americans) to two (added Latin American immigrants — now 16% of the population) racially delineated underclasses does a lot to undermine social cohesion.==

Have you explored the possibility that people's obsession with this is what has actually undermined social cohesion? It has happened before in American history with the Know-Nothing Party.

==Source for U.S. demographics==

Your own source shows "whites" (72.4%) and "blacks" (12.6%) as making up 85% of the population as of 2010. You have decided to further delineate that into "non-hispanic white" which is not an actual race. Also notable that you don't split out the differences of Southern Italians and Northern Irish. Do immigrants from Spain count as white or Hispanic?

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#525

Post by nybble41 »

graeme wrote: post #205
Dumblydorr wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very large percentage of free resources are being hoarded in wealth and cash piles, would you actually claim a company like Apple is directing all of it's free resources to making better products? Why the stock buybacks and 200 billion pile?

That's capital. It gets given back to investors, who invest it elsewhere. They don't just stick it under the mattress. It is moved from Apple to a place where it can be put to use. With a buyback (or dividend) apple is saying "we ran out of productive ways to spend this money"

Even if they did just keep a few billion dollars of physical cash in a vault somewhere, that would just increase the purchasing power of the remainder. The total value of all currency in circulation (all forms combined) tends toward the total value of all of the goods available for purchase.

Taking money out of circulation is a bit like making a loan to everyone in proportion to the amount of currency they hold; when you do decide to put it back into circulation, that increase in value (deflation) represents the interest you receive on the loan.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#526

Post by toasterlovin »

moorhosj wrote: post #524
toasterlovin wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, but that was true when the US had a robust middle class (roughly 1940-2000). Not really. Non-hispanic whites + blacks made up 95% of the population as recently as 1970. As of 2010, those two groups combined make up only 75% of the population. There have been radical changes in the demography of the U.S. in the last 50-80 years. I actually agree with you that changing demographics are not the whole story, but t…

==Non-hispanic whites + blacks made up 95% of the population as recently as 1970== The large immigrant communities from Italy, Germany and Ireland were not considered "white" when they first came to the US. Only later did that occur as definitions of race have changed over time, usually to serve a political purpose. ==the fact that the U.S. has gone from one (black Americans) to two (added Latin American immigrants —…

If you honestly think there's no difference between non-hispanic whites and hispanic whites in the U.S., you know nothing about race and culture in the U.S.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#527

Post by gumby »

baroffoos wrote: post #118
gumby wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't believe in Universal Basic Income though, we live in a society and it is our duty to contribute to that society. There are plenty of things people do that are valuable to society yet are not captured in the GDP, and are thus not highly valued by contemporary society. They range from visiting and looking after elder parents, playing with your children, writing poetry etc. Then there are undervalued activitie…

I knew a guy who worked 6 months a year doing contract work and then spent the other 6 months on hobbies and personal projects. I remember asking him if he gets bored during those 6 months not working and he said to me "I don't base my life enjoyment off of making someone else money". That advice has really stuck to me and its really cool to see the electronics projects he builds in those 6 months.

I have an old college classmate who does this with a twist: he has a number, and when he hits that number he stops for the rest of the year. Last time I spoke with him that was about six months.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#528

Post by hoaw2 »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #512
hoaw wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. I am saying that if you take time off you end up being at odds with much of society. You realize that many things, even leisure activities, now only exists in relation to work. And after not working for a while few of these things are exciting anymore. So I am not saying it isn't a good idea. Just that it is hard from a practical perspective. Which is why younger people who take sabbaticals often end up in e.g…

I don't think it needs to be that grand of a scale to fulfill the reasoning. OP's example was a fellow taking time off and exercising his other interests in electronics by learning and experimenting. Another example might be a hobby. A hobby is a great example of a leisure activity as its [usually] done completely for its own sake. For instance, a sheet metal worker who spends much of their time off work playing in a…

To take the example at hand, for many young(ish) people taking time off work to learn electronics wouldn't necessary be a nice experience. Because their lives exist to a large extent in relation to work. They have moved to a new city, because of work. Where the live in a small apartment, to be close to work. They have friends, from work. And they have coffee on their way to work, to talk about work or even to do work.

They couldn't just take time off and have a similar life. By leaving work they would lose a lot of the connection to their de facto lives. It wouldn't be worth living in an expensive city, in a small apartment and have expensive coffee "just" to learn electronics. Increasingly the things in people's lives aren't "neutral". Their small apartments are made for going to work from, not necessarily for doing things in. But you can't necessarily move either without losing context.

On the other hand if you are already established. You have a house, a family, friends outside work and whatever else you need, it isn't necessarily that hard to go down in the basement and learn electronics instead of going to work for six months out of the year. Because your environment is "neutral" and exists whether you go to work short-term or not. A lot of people aren't really established like that though.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#529

Post by mpweiher »

darawk wrote: post #495
mpweiher wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. That's another bold claim as support for the the thesis that STEM is "natural" for kids. Remember: natural First, China in general is not a free society, the state enforces what it wants its citizens to do, sometimes quite brutally. https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2018/china https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_China "Xi Jinping wields a level of social control not seen since Mao, posing a…

Who said anything about anything being 'natural'?

That's the subject of the subthread:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19082026

>>Studying STEM is not natural to many kids

> That is purely a systemic problem, there's no reason that it couldn't be natural.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#530

Post by sol_remmy2 »

tziki wrote: post #390
sol_remmy2 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at immigration rates over the past 50 years, the US comes far far ahead. The US look a majority of its immigrants in the 90s and early 2000s, while Sweden took near-zero immigrants until 10 years ago. Additionally, many Western European 'immigrants' are actually just people moving between different Western European countries.

You're so far off it's not even funny.

Sorry mate, do your research next time
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