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How Israel handles airport security

thestar.com

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Re: How Israel handles airport security

#131

Post by berntb »

After reading this discussion, I'd be sorely disappointed if I ever flew in/out if Israel and wasn't checked out carefully. :-)

But they are probably good at profiling curious tourists too.

Reminds me of when me and a few friends bicycled around Northern Ireland once in the 90s. If I made a querying hand gesture to military at checkpoints if we should get over for questioning, they laughed, without even hearing my non-native English... ("More stupid tourists that just want to get close looks at our bullpups.")

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#132

Post by yummyfajitas »

edanm wrote: post #124
jbooth wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only sort of forced -- conscription is there for cultural reasons, not out of necessity. From what I understand (which could be wrong), pretty much anyone can get out of the army there if they want. But people like the symbolism of "everyone serves". Certainly it doesn't behave according to standard "market" rules though, even in a situation where they abolished the "forced" part and left it to culture to enforc…

"It's only sort of forced -- conscription is there for cultural reasons, not out of necessity." That's not exactly true. Conscription is necessary (consider that Israel is a tiny country, but has a lot of enemies.) The symbolism is important too, but it's not the root cause, it's just a nice added benefit (there are a lot of other benefits to this, by the way.) That said, I don't think you can consider it forced labo…

I'm not sure why the fact that only offload some of the costs of this onto your family makes it something other than forced labor.

Unless the salary they pay you is sufficient to induce you to join the army regardless of other penalties, it's forced labor. You are forced to perform labor you would not otherwise perform.

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#133

Post by edanm »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #132
edanm wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's only sort of forced -- conscription is there for cultural reasons, not out of necessity." That's not exactly true. Conscription is necessary (consider that Israel is a tiny country, but has a lot of enemies.) The symbolism is important too, but it's not the root cause, it's just a nice added benefit (there are a lot of other benefits to this, by the way.) That said, I don't think you can consider it forced labo…

I'm not sure why the fact that only offload some of the costs of this onto your family makes it something other than forced labor. Unless the salary they pay you is sufficient to induce you to join the army regardless of other penalties, it's forced labor. You are forced to perform labor you would not otherwise perform.

I don't mean to start a terminology debate. But when I hear "forced labor", it has extremely bad connotations to me, which is why I would hesitate to call it that. If you mean "forced labor" in the literal sense of the word, then of course you're right.

Just to back up my version slightly, here are the first two definitions when you Google "define: forced labor":

"[...] a generic or collective term for those work relations, especially in modern or early modern history, in which people are employed against their will by the threat of destitution, detention, violence (including death), or other extreme hardship to themselves, or to members of their families"

"Work which one is compelled to perform against one's will, especially in a condition of involuntary servitude as a prisoner or slave"

[Emphasis mine in both cases.]

Neither of these really fit when talking about Israel's army conscription. There are some societal problems with not serving in the army (people look down on not serving, and sometimes people who haven't served have a harder time finding jobs,) but there's nothing approaching the level of what's talked about in those definitions I quoted.

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#134

Post by jemfinch »

aresant wrote: post #2

Article leaves out the very real and very big catch: "Israel values its security, and pays for it. According to an analysis by Bloomberg News, Israel spends around 10 times more per passenger than the United States does." A little more on that: "[An analyst] estimated El Al's security bill at $100 million a year, which amounts to $76.92 per trip by its 1.3 million passengers. Half is paid by the Israeli government,"…

"To be fair, this compares per-passenger costs for El Al, Israel's national carrier, to the costs for the TSA, the U.S. agency responsible for air safety. Ideally, we'd want to compare the airport security costs for Shin Bet, a Israeli security agency."

I think it's a bit disingenuous to quote the previous statement without this one.

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#135

Post by harscoat »

harscoat wrote: post #117

Flew there with my girl friend. We were very happy to be there 2 days only after sudden invitation to see a prospect. So when we handed our passports to the interviewer to get the Israel (Holy land!) visa Stamp, we were laughing of sheer joy to be there. Interviewer glared at us and asked abruptly: "what makes you laugh?!"

Hey guys who downvote: we were happy(!!) to arrive in Israel where friends of mine (who did Aliyah) where waiting for us all rejoicing themselves. That should be a ok/secure reason and attitude when arriving landing at the desired airport! (It turned out to be one of the greatest trip of our life: TelAviv, Jerusalem, the Dead See and the most fantastic En Gedi kibboutz).

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#136

Post by jemfinch »

chris_j wrote: post #127
tzs wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't think they are explosives. They think they might be precursors to explosives.

It's more subtle than that. They don't think they are explosives. They are merely ensuring that no liquids are taken through security. If no liquids are taken through security then no liquid precursors to explosives are taken through security. What's more, if it is known that no liquids can be taken through security then the bad guys won't even bother to take liquid precursors to explosives through security. This beg…

> What's more, if it is known that no liquids can be taken through security then the bad guys won't even bother to take liquid precursors to explosives through security.

So the bad guys will just find another way to get their precursors through security. TSA's focus on things just forces the bad guys to adapt; instead, it should focus on the bad guys themselves.

> This begs a number of questions

No, it doesn't. It may raise a number of questions, but that's very different than "begging the question", which is a philosophical term for a circular argument. Please stop misusing this phrase and contributing to the general decline in modern English usage.

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#137

Post by chopsueyar »

spdy wrote: post #106
onewland wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another anecdote, I was questioned heavily going into Israel for the Birthright program (flying out of Miami on El Al). They actually confiscated my Nintendo DS because I didn't have a game to play for it in my bag. I also got a full physical pat down in a back office. That said, the people were truly polite. If TSA employees were more tactful and friendly, that unpleasant potion might at least go down a little ea…

As far as i remember from another article. TSA personal is trained to be unfriendly, mainly to push you out of your comfort zone and see how you react to this kind of treatment.

Well, then, the TSA is doing an excellent job.

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#138

Post by chopsueyar »

aberkowitz wrote: post #94
harisenbon wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not even make it opt in? Ticket price plus a 38 dollar "treat me like a human being" tax. I'd pay it.

What has it come to when we have to pay more, just to be treated as humans?

Capitalism?

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#139

Post by chopsueyar »

srean wrote: post #90

Despite the overwhelming possibility of being downvoted it needs mention that the Israeli model as practiced may not be that good an example for US to follow. It has been documented by several respected human rights organizations and UN that Israel's security measures are often used as a proxy for punishment and harassment for disagreeing with the official govt line. In spite of some erosion of liberties in US in the…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#140

Post by zephyrfalcon »

doron wrote: post #86

This solution is all well and good (i will disregard issues of legal liberties afforded in this country for the moment) But it doesn't scale,Israel has one single main airport, the US has dozens of points for international entry, and many more domestic. It is easy and fairly cost effective when you have one location you have to worry about.

"But it doesn't scale,Israel has one single main airport, the US has dozens of points for international entry, and many more domestic. It is easy and fairly cost effective when you have one location you have to worry about."

People say this, but it makes little sense to me. Compare having one factory that makes a product, vs having a hundred factories that make that same product. The latter is much more cost efficient per factory.

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