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How Israel handles airport security

thestar.com

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Re: How Israel handles airport security

#71

Post by jbooth »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #23
ars wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, soldiers are paid. And airport security work is not by soldiers anyway, it's regular employment.

Forced labor wages As for airport security not being done by soldiers, my mistake. I only visited Israel once, but I was under the impression the airport guys were IDF. I guess I'm misremembering the uniforms. Thanks for the correction.

It's only sort of forced -- conscription is there for cultural reasons, not out of necessity. From what I understand (which could be wrong), pretty much anyone can get out of the army there if they want. But people like the symbolism of "everyone serves".

Certainly it doesn't behave according to standard "market" rules though, even in a situation where they abolished the "forced" part and left it to culture to enforce service from 18-21.

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#72

Post by devinj »

prawn wrote: post #70
2arrs2ells wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a check for knives/guns/bullets, right?

I've always wondered re knives - couldn't you just take on carefully pre-fractured plastic that you snapped once on board?

No, you'd take a ceramic knife most likely. Much sharper, and still wouldn't be detected. I suspect the test is more for guns than knives.

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#73

Post by tjmc »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #56
jbl wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TSA system is a production line - hire cheap unskilled labor, and train around a process and manuals. This is the big thing that popped out at me from reading the article. The personnel described sound highly experienced and trained. I wonder how long and how much it would cost to bring your standard TSA screener up to that level.

It sounds from the article that the Israeli airport security personal are all ex-IDF. It's a job they naturally matriculate into after serving their required 2yrs in the IDF. I am not an expert, but I imagine that given the primary mission of the IDF in dealing with Palestine, they probably receive training and some experience (depending on where they are assigned) in how to spot potential terrorists using behavioral…

There is definitely soft skills training in the US military. This was an interesting read: http://www.amazon.com/Interrogators-War-Breaking-Al-Qaeda-Af... It's a military interrogator's account of the techniques used in Afghanistan.

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#74

Post by RyanMcGreal »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #56
jbl wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TSA system is a production line - hire cheap unskilled labor, and train around a process and manuals. This is the big thing that popped out at me from reading the article. The personnel described sound highly experienced and trained. I wonder how long and how much it would cost to bring your standard TSA screener up to that level.

It sounds from the article that the Israeli airport security personal are all ex-IDF. It's a job they naturally matriculate into after serving their required 2yrs in the IDF. I am not an expert, but I imagine that given the primary mission of the IDF in dealing with Palestine, they probably receive training and some experience (depending on where they are assigned) in how to spot potential terrorists using behavioral…

>It sounds from the article that the Israeli airport security personal are all ex-IDF.

Every Israeli adult is ex-IDF, except for those adults who are still in the IDF.

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#75

Post by philwelch »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #56
jbl wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TSA system is a production line - hire cheap unskilled labor, and train around a process and manuals. This is the big thing that popped out at me from reading the article. The personnel described sound highly experienced and trained. I wonder how long and how much it would cost to bring your standard TSA screener up to that level.

It sounds from the article that the Israeli airport security personal are all ex-IDF. It's a job they naturally matriculate into after serving their required 2yrs in the IDF. I am not an expert, but I imagine that given the primary mission of the IDF in dealing with Palestine, they probably receive training and some experience (depending on where they are assigned) in how to spot potential terrorists using behavioral…

The IDF is more specialized in counterterrorism than the US military, but that's because counterterrorism is 70-80% of the IDF's mission--the other 20-30% being defense against comparatively feeble Arab armies. The IDF also only has to defend itself.

The US military has much, much wider requirements--it has obligations to South Korea, Japan, NATO, and the entire Western hemisphere, which demand a strong conventional warfighting ability.

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#76

Post by hrabago »

bruceboughton wrote: post #35
daten wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider how many bottles of liquid the TSA confiscates in a day because they might be explosives. Now imagine actually treating each of those as if the agent really believed it was a threat in the style described in the article. Does this still make sense?

It would make sense if they actually put some thought into identifying threats, rather than simply confiscating items previously used in thwarted attacks.

This is the part that disappoints me the most, especially after the toner ban. I would expect this from the third world country I came from, where actors win elections because they play likable characters in movies, but not here in the US.

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#77

Post by nir »

idan wrote: post #68
SandB0x wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idan, I don't think you're really contradicting what I've written (especially with the Sephardic thing). I didn't deny that racial profiling took place at all, nor did I debate its merits or ethical status, I was asserting that it's not in any way the only factor. About your friends, it could be partly self-fulfilling. If they think they're going to be given extra treatment they might understandably act in a more ner…

Don't get me wrong. I have no personal beef with you :) Specific statements which I am refuting: "but the profiling is mostly behavioural" - behavioral profiling is secondary to the racial stuff. At the end of the day, a screener here is more likely to forgive some quirky behavior on my part because I am white and Jewish. Obviously, I have no hard science with which to back up this claim. My anecdotal sampling of fri…

"Gestapo me", "BS" - you seem pretty decisive. are you basing your comments on actual knowledge of the process or anecdotal evidence?

My personal impression from countless times of passing via TLV is that the profiling is mostly itinerary based. That is, Israeli citizen going off to a 3 day business trip to Europe is less suspect than an American tourist with a very short length of stay.

I know a middle aged WASP lady (pasty white, dignified, looks like someone who might be related to the Kennedys) who had to endure questioning because she fit the latter profile. Not really "gestapo", though - from what she told me it sounded better than the normal treatment non-US citizens get at Newark. Many of my Israeli family & friends are dark skinned, never had any trouble.

I'm not saying I know better, just that my anecdotal evidence doesn't match yours.

In any case, this isn't really applicable for the US. TLV gets much fewer visitors than JFK, and they tend to fit certain trip profiles - few people just go for a weekend in Tel Aviv, for example. Also, many in Israel itself are unhappy with the breach of their privacy, and my impression is that security procedure are actually moving to more reliance on machines than humans.

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#78

Post by beagle3 »

endtime wrote: post #17
yummyfajitas wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That probably underestimates what it would cost us to have Israeli style security. In the US, we would need to pay market rates for airport security personnel. In Israel, they can pay far less since much of Israel's domestic security is provided by forced labor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription#Countries_with_and...

I don't think airport security officials in Israel are doing their national service stint, though I could be wrong.

You are not wrong.

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#79

Post by onewland »

nir wrote: post #77
idan wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't get me wrong. I have no personal beef with you :) Specific statements which I am refuting: "but the profiling is mostly behavioural" - behavioral profiling is secondary to the racial stuff. At the end of the day, a screener here is more likely to forgive some quirky behavior on my part because I am white and Jewish. Obviously, I have no hard science with which to back up this claim. My anecdotal sampling of fri…

"Gestapo me", "BS" - you seem pretty decisive. are you basing your comments on actual knowledge of the process or anecdotal evidence? My personal impression from countless times of passing via TLV is that the profiling is mostly itinerary based. That is, Israeli citizen going off to a 3 day business trip to Europe is less suspect than an American tourist with a very short length of stay. I know a middle aged WASP lad…

As another anecdote, I was questioned heavily going into Israel for the Birthright program (flying out of Miami on El Al). They actually confiscated my Nintendo DS because I didn't have a game to play for it in my bag. I also got a full physical pat down in a back office.

That said, the people were truly polite. If TSA employees were more tactful and friendly, that unpleasant potion might at least go down a little easier.

Re: How Israel handles airport security

#80

Post by amalcon »

bigiain wrote: post #53
aresant wrote: post #2

Article leaves out the very real and very big catch: "Israel values its security, and pays for it. According to an analysis by Bloomberg News, Israel spends around 10 times more per passenger than the United States does." A little more on that: "[An analyst] estimated El Al's security bill at $100 million a year, which amounts to $76.92 per trip by its 1.3 million passengers. Half is paid by the Israeli government,"…

"Israel values its security, and pays for it. According to an analysis by Bloomberg News, Israel spends around 10 times more per passenger than the United States does." I'll bet those numbers change if you include the cost of a pair of world trade center towers and the associated expenses of that incident. "Cheap and ineffective" != "inexpensive"

More comprehensive pre-flight screening could not have stopped the Sept. 11 attacks, because they did not involve sneaking contraband onto the plane. The cardboard box cutters that were used in the attack were allowed at the time.
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