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Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

nytimes.com

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Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#181

Post by gamblor956 »

resters wrote: post #103
save_ferris wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: are ethics taught in MBA programs, and if so, how? Generally speaking, how are MBA's taught to avoid making this very mistake?

I think in this case the ethical issue is not disclosing the policy more directly. I suppose why would anyone tip $5 if the driver would only get $1. My guess is that this isn't really an ethical issue with Instacart, which I view as a very well run company. More likely, the model is a fairly cleverly designed tip jar that accepts tips and then brings up the average wage so that workers have a higher guaranteed minim…

In the US, "tip" has a legal meaning and tips are subject to specific rules.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#182

Post by kevin_b_er »

40acres wrote: post #54

I think the fact that a gig economy company with fair (for lack of a better term) labor practices hasn't shown up yet (to my knowledge) is an indictment on the lack of vision from VCs and entrepreneurs. As a recent NYT article showed, we are moving towards a bifurcated economy split between service workers and high skilled work based on technology. The gig economy has the correct foresight in merging the two but due…

> I think the fact that a gig economy company with fair (for lack of a better term) labor practices hasn't shown up yet (to my knowledge) is an indictment on the lack of vision from VCs and entrepreneurs.

Their vision is likely well aligned. The gig economy metes out little bits of work to a new underclass, while shifting nearly all risk onto them. This improves profit flow. The gig economy bypasses the American Labor Movement. The mandatory binding arbitration bypasses the Rule of Law.

The VC's vision is excellent. They extract work out people who don't have much recourse, except they've figured out slavery isn't needed. You just need them hopeless enough to work for nothing, because they can't get anything else. Since they don't need to be paid minimum wage, they don't get benefits, and you can nickle and dime them because you've bypassed the rule of law, you get a lot of advantages over a normal company that has to play by the classic rules of treating humans with any kind of dignity and the laws they got passed to do so.

The app concept makes things faceless so the company can make profit by making someone else do the hard work and take the risks.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#183

Post by paulgb »

WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #179
paulgb wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the case of DoorDash, they have an arbitration clause in their TOS that effectively quashes any attempts at a class action. Hopefully one day the US justice system will wake up to the fact that allowing companies to opt-out of the main mechanism preventing them from engaging in this sort of petty-crime-at-scale is not a good idea, but until then it's what we're stuck with.

I wonder if giving someone my credit card, having them add to DoorDash, then suing would be worth it. I wonder if small claims court lawsuits could be used as precedent.

You can individually opt out of the arbitration clause, the problem is finding a critical mass of other people who opted out within the opt-out period.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#184

Post by bobthepanda »

WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #180
Tactic wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have spoke up in similar situations several times at a number of companies. Not once was what I said a revelation or surprise. The business people knew already what the possible results would be. They had assessed it and decided to move on regardless. Clearly the potential results were worth the risk in their assessment. I have learned that my code of ethics are just not the same as a number of business persons'. T…

Unfortunately, we reward bad behavior by not having the hammer be swung down hard and fast. Look at the ridesharing companies, all of them started by defying local laws. Couple of people get assaulted here and there, doesn't matter as long as Silicon Valley gets it's money.

The hammer swings down fast in some cases. Look at Robin Hood's checking account debacle. The SEC, FDIC and SPIC do not play around.

The problem is where regulations are enforced. At state level results may vary. At local level very few jurisdictions can out-battle a company with millions or billions in VC funding. Uber blocked local regulators in Portland from blocking rides: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-uber-portland/portland-pr...

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#185

Post by geoelectric »

rconti wrote: post #104

I've never used Instacart, but I've used GrubHub and DoorDash and the like a couple of times -- I can never remember which one I have an account for, or which one has the restaurant I want, so it's always a hodgepodge. But one thing is clear as day. When I use DoorDash, the tip box says "100% of tip goes to Dasher". Look, I know all of these places either charge me a service fee, or if I'm not being charged a service…

I quit tipping on DD as soon as I found this out about a month ago because it'd almost always be less than $4.50, so wouldn't affect the dasher's bottom line anyway. If I start again it'll be cash, but I don't typically carry that in small bills.

But I'm pissed. I've been a heavy DD customer for years and I'm an excellent tipper. Apparently I've been offsetting DD's costs for quite awhile now thinking "100% goes to Dasher." Bad enough that I have to tip in advance of the service--Uber Eats does this right--but they've been stealing those tips the whole time on top of their "service charge" and "delivery fee". I'd love to see them burn.

It doesn't take a class action--last I saw comparative stats they were only doing well in the Bay Area, San Jose specifically, and were rock bottom of the market share elsewhere. We probably just need one educated market to trash this strategy.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#186

Post by blueline »

a-wu wrote: post #122
newfriend wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of other delivery services. Grubhub, UberEats, and Caviar are a few off the top of my head.

UberEats/Grubhub don't have the same selection of restaurants in my area and I'm really not sure how much I trust them to not pull this same thing either. I will definitely try to order from those services if available but I'll probably still tip in cash.

if ubereats works the same as uber then 100% of the tip actually does go to the worker

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#187

Post by ch4ch4 »

tuxxy wrote: post #175
techsupporter wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DoorDash has a mandatory arbitration clause (that I opted out of but most people don’t) so I fear the best we can hope for is a light tap from a state AG and a flimsy promise to “review our internal procedures” with no big change. It isn’t as though large numbers of people will stop using these services that deliberately abuse their “independent contractor” workers.

How do you arbitrarily opt out of mandatory arbitration clauses?

Well, the easiest way is to just not use the service...

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#188

Post by gamblor956 »

ummonk wrote: post #28

I've always found this practice outrageous but don't understand why everyone else is only getting outraged now that Instacart and DoorDash do it... This is pretty normal in the restaurant and food delivery industry, and should have been made illegal ages ago.

That is actually not normal in the restaurant industry.

In restaurants, tipped workers get a base wage and earn tips on top of that. If they don't hit minimum wage from that base wage+tips, the restaurant has to pay them so they at least make minimum wage. If you have an issue with the low base wage, take it up with your local legislature.

InstaCart and DoorDash are doing something different: they're promising a minimum payment to drivers but that minimum payment is in lieu of a tip. A or B, not A+B=C.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#189

Post by koolba »

tuxxy wrote: post #175
techsupporter wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DoorDash has a mandatory arbitration clause (that I opted out of but most people don’t) so I fear the best we can hope for is a light tap from a state AG and a flimsy promise to “review our internal procedures” with no big change. It isn’t as though large numbers of people will stop using these services that deliberately abuse their “independent contractor” workers.

How do you arbitrarily opt out of mandatory arbitration clauses?

Per https://www.doordash.com/terms/#section12 you have to send them an email with your account info within 30 days of signing up:

> (f) Opt Out. You may opt out of this Arbitration Agreement. If you do so, neither you nor the Company can force the other to arbitrate as a result of this Agreement. To opt out, you must notify the Company in writing no later than 30 days after first becoming subject to this Arbitration Agreement. Your notice must include your name and address, your DoorDash username (if any), the email address you used to set up your DoorDash account (if you have one), and a CLEAR statement that you want to opt out of this Arbitration Agreement. You must send your opt-out notice to: opt-out@doordash.com. If you opt out of this Arbitration Agreement, all other parts of this Agreement will continue to apply to you.

Re: Instacart and DoorDash’s Tip Policies Are Delivering Outrage

#190

Post by eljimmy »

rconti wrote: post #104

I've never used Instacart, but I've used GrubHub and DoorDash and the like a couple of times -- I can never remember which one I have an account for, or which one has the restaurant I want, so it's always a hodgepodge. But one thing is clear as day. When I use DoorDash, the tip box says "100% of tip goes to Dasher". Look, I know all of these places either charge me a service fee, or if I'm not being charged a service…

I tried DoorDash out for the first time recently. Gave a generous tip because the driver had to wait a while as the food took way longer to prepare. Then I started reading about DoorDash and discovered what you mentioned about tips.

Immediately uninstalled, will never use them again. That is downright criminal what they're doing. Made sure to let all my friends know about that too.

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