Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves • Hacker News Board

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#331

Post by wolco » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 3:13 AM UTC

rdlecler1 wrote: post #211

rytor718 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's just logical self-interest which is exactly his #1 job if he's running his own business. This is precisely one of the cultural obstacles to correct. Dropping in a 1 year policy without substantial organizational preparation and planning is -- surprise -- doomed to fail. Like every single other aspect of organizational planning. The problem in the US is we simply do not value these kinds of things. We value ind…

Someone running a small business is usually most concerned about survival, not individuality. And if you think small businesses first priority should be substantial organizational preparation and planning then it's clear you've never tried to start a company. The main focus for most entrepreneurs is survival in face of the market. Fail at that and you are doomed to fail. I'm both a parent and a small business owner a…

You run a business an employee can quit with 2 weeks notice. If preparing for that requires substantial organization preparation you will be doomed to fail. Parental leave gives you months of notice time with periods of overlay where training could happen. It should be easier.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#332

Post by Mirioron » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 3:16 AM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #298

Mirioron wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because many businesses can't afford to do so. I worked at a small company where a senior dev took a year off. His replacement didn't quite fit the same roles as well and the project fell apart. I believe the company fell apart afterwards too.

And if that senior dev just left for a better job?

Same thing would've probably happened, but that's not a risk you can really mitigate against. I believe he even had some ownership of the company, so he probably lost out on a bit too.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#333

Post by wolco » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 3:16 AM UTC

bluecalm wrote: post #198

rytor718 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's just logical self-interest which is exactly his #1 job if he's running his own business. This is precisely one of the cultural obstacles to correct. Dropping in a 1 year policy without substantial organizational preparation and planning is -- surprise -- doomed to fail. Like every single other aspect of organizational planning. The problem in the US is we simply do not value these kinds of things. We value ind…

Man, small businesses often don't have any "organizational planning". You work every day and hope the others (maybe one, two or three people) do as well. You go by and hope for the best. Most often you fail or don't really make much. Once you are the stage of "organizational preparation and planning" it's a different ball-game. The problem is that you have to somehow start and most of the world isn't full of VS money…

At that stage you are not hiring full time employees. You give out short contracts with promises for bigger ones. Someone always leaves and you are not paying the salary of the persompn on leave.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#334

Post by wvenable » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 3:17 AM UTC

bluecalm wrote: post #266

rpvnwnkl wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The approach blucalm is offering is nearly the definition of sex discrimination. You can’t play the odds when hiring in protected classes, you need to assess the applicants on an individual basis...

Yes. You're either sexist, eat the costs or not hire at all. Quite a tough spot for a very small business. I think the laws should align incentives instead of creating situations like that.

You completely ignore the fact that it makes no difference. You seem awfully comfortable with the idea that a man won't screw you over and a woman will by going on a leave. If you want to be irrational, you might as well not even start a business because it could all be destroyed by hurricanes, floods, or fire too.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#335

Post by int_19h » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 3:18 AM UTC

james_s_tayler wrote: post #330

int_19h wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider this. Idealized US is "freedom, liberty, and pursuit of happiness." Idealized Canada is "peace, order, and good government." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace,_order,_and_good_governm... ) I'm neither Canadian nor American, but I have been a permanent resident of Canada, and now live in US. The day-to-day differences are relatively minor in comparable geographic regions, but mainstream American and Canad…

OK, I've considered that. It's not really saying anything to me that would make me think that the people in Canada on average value the collective over the individual in terms of how they personally behave and more importantly how they tell others to behave. A phrase we often hear a lot is 'It's a free country'. Sometimes we say it as a justification that 'this is my preference / choice and regardless of what you thi…

I don't think anybody would disagree that Canada, and really all Western countries, are more on the individualist side of of the global spectrum - that's our shared Enlightenment culture at play. But OP was talking comparatively, US versus Canada. In that context, I think it's quite true that Canada (and, again, most other Western countries) are not quite as individualist as US. When you compare both versus Japan, yeah, it's a very minor difference.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#336

Post by Mirioron » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 3:18 AM UTC

lhorie wrote: post #290

Mirioron wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But none of the things you mentioned are different between men and women. Parental leave is simply a risk factor on top of what you mentioned. > If your business fails due to a parental leave of all things, let me tell you, you were probably severely delusional about its viability to begin with. Let's take an extreme case: a 1 person business. If I, the business owner, take parental leave then my business is pretty m…

I actually have a friend who runs a restaurant with her husband. It's an _extremely low margins_ business with brutally long hours. She got pregnant and eventually took time off (she went back to China for a few months to get her parents to help with the baby). When she came back a few months later, surprise surprise, the business was still there. Did they have worries? Sure, stress from wait staff turnover, an air c…

Restaurants aren't exactly businesses where people become difficult to replace. Imagine you had a company that was trying to start a video service and the expert on ffmpeg goes on parental leave half way through. Good luck replacing somebody like that if you're not in a tech hotspot.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#337

Post by wvenable » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 3:23 AM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #332

wvenable wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if that senior dev just left for a better job?

Same thing would've probably happened, but that's not a risk you can really mitigate against. I believe he even had some ownership of the company, so he probably lost out on a bit too.

With all the possible factors: leaving for a better job, falling ill, having a family member fall ill, getting hit by bus, getting poached by a competitor, or taking parental leave -- that last one is hardly even the worst. If you're worried about that, you're not worried enough about real issues.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#338

Post by perfmode » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 3:27 AM UTC

tathougies wrote: post #194

perfmode wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is so convoluted that you were probably better off not saying anything at all. It seems like you're starting from a conclusion and providing all of the things that support your conclusion. Instead, consider all the data and see what conclusions are revealed. You haven't conceded a single merit to the counterargument.

I started from a conclusion (that one year parental leave is a good thing) and then argued it leads to a number of outcomes which I deem unsatisfactory. Thus, I reject the initial conclusion. This is a form of argument by contradiction, or reductio ad absurdum. Part of it, is actually assuming the conclusion and then showing that it contradicts itself or leads to other unsavoriness. One criticism of reductio ad absur…

Using Latin terms doesn’t change the fact that your argument is intellectually dishonest.

Name a single, unqualified societal benefit to a one year leave.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#339

Post by xzel » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 3:31 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #319

woodpanel wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany you'll get up to three years right-of-return. The employer doesn't pay you a dime. First twelve months you get approx. 60% of your current income from the government (BTW the same coverage people get when unemployed). You can expand those twelve months into 24, halving the amount of what you're paid. You can also apply for additional support (e.g. there's a fixed amount per kid you'll get until it reaches…

Germany’s total fertility rate is below all but one of its neighbours so whatever it’s doing it’s not making things easier for women who want to have children. Germany 1.41 France 1.98 Luxembourg 1.78 Denmark 1.74 Netherlands 1.66 Switzerland 1.44 Austria 1.38 Poland 1.27

I doubt that number has much to do with leave benefits because from what I understand those benefits have only increased. I think it would be much more cultural and generational.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#340

Post by pertymcpert » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 3:41 AM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #277

Certhas wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Just wow. So, in many European countries, fathers and mothers have a right to substantial amounts of parental leave. Like a year or more. In all of these places small businesses exist. In Sweden, with very extensive parental leave [1], there is a large number of start ups. So obviously, empirically, you must be missing something. Generally speaking, if your employees care about your business (and getting their j…

According to the 2018 SBA fact sheet about Sweden by the EU commission [1] Sweden does employ fewer people in small and micro businesses than are employed on average in the entirety of the EU. Small and micro businesses in Sweden employ 46.6% of the workforce, while in EU-28 the percentage is 49.4%. If you add medium businesses to it you get 65.5% for Sweden and 66.4% for EU-28. You can also find some interesting mea…

Wow, those percentages are really close. From your opening sentence it seemed like you were going to say something like 60% and 20%. Seems there's no point at all :)