Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves • Hacker News Board

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#281

Post by thetrb » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 12:55 AM UTC

charlie0 wrote: post #261

sandworm101 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in canada and there is an actual problem. I know of a lawfirm that suffered through a new hire. She had one kid, took the leave and then was pregnant with another within months of returning. The nasty part was that she made is known she intended on leaving the firm after the second kid. She did then leave. The firm effectively paid her for two years only to have her then walk out the door. Women should get the ti…

This right here. I heard at my old job that a woman who was having a job orientation got nauseated and was throwing up. She came back stating she was pregnant and due to the law she could not be fired and was entitled to some sort of leave. For HR the position is technically filled, so they aren't able to hire someone else without making exceptions. While I think maternity leave is great, I think there should be some…

Wow, calling a pregnant woman "leech-like" is one of the most misogynistic things I've ever read on HN.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#282

Post by Mirioron » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 12:57 AM UTC

lhorie wrote: post #272

Mirioron wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you are forgetting to consider that the Canadian policy allows males to take parental leave as well, so the excuse for the discrimination isn't even logically consistent. But they are much less likely to take this parental leave. > Personally, having lead teams of people ranging from experienced professionals to interns still in school, I find it extremely hard to imagine a small business that is such a special sno…

> But they are much less likely to take this parental leave If you want to talk about likelihoods, consider that in most companies, the chance that an employee of any gender will leave for a random reason is much higher than someone of any gender taking parental leave. Trying to skirt the law to "optimize" for least parental leaves is kinda like sending a memo to your employees telling them to always run red lights a…

But none of the things you mentioned are different between men and women. Parental leave is simply a risk factor on top of what you mentioned.

>If your business fails due to a parental leave of all things, let me tell you, you were probably severely delusional about its viability to begin with.

Let's take an extreme case: a 1 person business. If I, the business owner, take parental leave then my business is pretty much guaranteed to fail. The rate gets lower the more employees and capital you have, because you can mitigate the risk, but many businesses are susceptible to this risk, because they simply don't have the resources to mitigate it. That doesn't really tell you much about the viability of the business. It says much more about the resources the business had available. Not everyone is born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#283

Post by erk__ » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 1:00 AM UTC

GordonS wrote: post #195

erk__ wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men do now have 2 months of parental leave, if they do not use that they lose it. This is per a new EU law from last year.

EU bloke here (well, for now, pending Brexit...) - do you have any more info on this? I think last time I took paternity leave it was only 2 weeks on full pay, and a further 2 weeks on half pay. Is the 2 months you mention on full pay?

The directive is quite new, they first reached an agreement in janurary so it is not implemented yet. https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2019...

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#284

Post by int_19h » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 1:01 AM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #263

rytor718 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's just logical self-interest which is exactly his #1 job if he's running his own business. This is precisely one of the cultural obstacles to correct. Dropping in a 1 year policy without substantial organizational preparation and planning is -- surprise -- doomed to fail. Like every single other aspect of organizational planning. The problem in the US is we simply do not value these kinds of things. We value ind…

> We value individuality foremost and I believe its among the top reasons parental leave is incomprehensible to many people. Uh... that's not valuing the individual (or individuality, the ability to make choices freely for one's self). The lack of paid parental leave adds an outside a government mandated influence to the decision of whether to have children or not. Unless... you're talking about the individual rights…

You don't have to be a corporation to hire people - think sole proprietorship.

I've been thinking that it might be an interesting experiment to apply some of the restrictions that we have only to corporations, but allow more leeway to individuals. So e.g. if you're a sole proprietor, you can arbitrarily discriminate in employment or service (it's your personal freedom of association), but if you register as an LLC, then that comes with the usual strings attached (since an artificial entity doesn't have proper personhood and any rights associated with that).

I suspect most businesses, even small, would still be LLCs.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#285

Post by int_19h » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 1:05 AM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #238

bluecalm wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sometimes doable sure. 10-person company is 5x bigger than mine though so it's way easier there. It's also the case that some areas require specialized knowledge and some don't. If I hire someone even very competent it will a few months till they are productive because we work in a very niche area. If you need someone who programs a CRUD website then yeah, it is easier. Just because something is doable in your 1…

when it comes to a social policy question like parental leave there is no size fits all solution, so we need to ask what we prioritize. I respect people who want to run very small businesses, but we can't realistically make policy for them if we want to guarantee some basic welfare and labour protection. Small businesses are often so unprofitable, have so little savings, and are so exposed to risk (as in this pregnan…

> you realistically need to scrap so much protection just to accommodate them.

And why not do so for them specifically? If you still have protections apply to larger companies, then it becomes a matter of choice for employees to choose small or large. But if you apply to everybody, and it kills small businesses, you're strictly worse off - if you can't land a job at one of those larger places, you're outright unemployed.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#286

Post by rhizome » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 1:06 AM UTC

bluecalm wrote: post #203

nasalgoat wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My partner worked at a 10-person company and took the year off for parental leave. They hired a temp to fill her role, who left when she came back. I work for a 15-person company and we had a developer take a year off. We hired a temp developer who left when the other dev came back. Not sure why this is hard to understand?

It's sometimes doable sure. 10-person company is 5x bigger than mine though so it's way easier there. It's also the case that some areas require specialized knowledge and some don't. If I hire someone even very competent it will a few months till they are productive because we work in a very niche area. If you need someone who programs a CRUD website then yeah, it is easier. Just because something is doable in your 1…

Doesn't that mean you're equally vulnerable to the bus factor?

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#287

Post by int_19h » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 1:09 AM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #277

Certhas wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Just wow. So, in many European countries, fathers and mothers have a right to substantial amounts of parental leave. Like a year or more. In all of these places small businesses exist. In Sweden, with very extensive parental leave [1], there is a large number of start ups. So obviously, empirically, you must be missing something. Generally speaking, if your employees care about your business (and getting their j…

According to the 2018 SBA fact sheet about Sweden by the EU commission [1] Sweden does employ fewer people in small and micro businesses than are employed on average in the entirety of the EU. Small and micro businesses in Sweden employ 46.6% of the workforce, while in EU-28 the percentage is 49.4%. If you add medium businesses to it you get 65.5% for Sweden and 66.4% for EU-28. You can also find some interesting mea…

Those numbers seem close enough that it's hard to conclude that there's a significant effect (especially given that there are many more variables at play here than just parental leave).

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#288

Post by lliamander » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 1:10 AM UTC

adamsea wrote: post #252

rdlecler1 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone running a small business is usually most concerned about survival, not individuality. And if you think small businesses first priority should be substantial organizational preparation and planning then it's clear you've never tried to start a company. The main focus for most entrepreneurs is survival in face of the market. Fail at that and you are doomed to fail. I'm both a parent and a small business owner a…

If the law applys to everyone then wouldn’t that one particular part of the playing field be even?

That just means that more businesses fail that could have otherwise succeeded.

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#289

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 1:12 AM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #282

lhorie wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But they are much less likely to take this parental leave If you want to talk about likelihoods, consider that in most companies, the chance that an employee of any gender will leave for a random reason is much higher than someone of any gender taking parental leave. Trying to skirt the law to "optimize" for least parental leaves is kinda like sending a memo to your employees telling them to always run red lights a…

But none of the things you mentioned are different between men and women. Parental leave is simply a risk factor on top of what you mentioned. > If your business fails due to a parental leave of all things, let me tell you, you were probably severely delusional about its viability to begin with. Let's take an extreme case: a 1 person business. If I, the business owner, take parental leave then my business is pretty m…

[deleted]

Re: Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation backtracks on one-year parental leaves

#290

Post by lhorie » Wed, Feb 06, 2019, 1:23 AM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #282

lhorie wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But they are much less likely to take this parental leave If you want to talk about likelihoods, consider that in most companies, the chance that an employee of any gender will leave for a random reason is much higher than someone of any gender taking parental leave. Trying to skirt the law to "optimize" for least parental leaves is kinda like sending a memo to your employees telling them to always run red lights a…

But none of the things you mentioned are different between men and women. Parental leave is simply a risk factor on top of what you mentioned. > If your business fails due to a parental leave of all things, let me tell you, you were probably severely delusional about its viability to begin with. Let's take an extreme case: a 1 person business. If I, the business owner, take parental leave then my business is pretty m…

I actually have a friend who runs a restaurant with her husband. It's an _extremely low margins_ business with brutally long hours. She got pregnant and eventually took time off (she went back to China for a few months to get her parents to help with the baby). When she came back a few months later, surprise surprise, the business was still there. Did they have worries? Sure, stress from wait staff turnover, an air conditioner that was too expensive to fix, chairs. But leaving for an extended period of time to decompress from work stress was something her husband supported despite the temp long distance relationship and the extra burden on himself because he knew that would help them cope better in the long term.

Let's be honest, anyone can come up with ridiculous hypothetical situations where "obviously" parental leave is the only evil in the world and must be banished. But at the end of the day, they're just that: hypotheticals with no basis in reality. I've seen businesses succeed and fail and I've seen parental leaves in these businesses. Parental leaves are simply not as deciding of a factor as one might like to fantasize, and anyone who wants to argue against them might want to look at the silver spoons in their own mouths before casting stones at others.