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Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#291

Post by slantyyz »

phkahler wrote: post #243
habosa wrote: post #222

I am in favor of higher taxes, but that does not solve the dignity issue at all. Taking from the rich to give to the poor only solidifies the division between the two groups. It makes givers and takers, and there will be resentment on both sides. We as a society need to find a way to not only feed and clothe and house everyone but to give them purpose and a voice. Paying off half the workforce doesn't do it.

I'm beginning to think increasing minimum wage will help. You don't need to tax the rich, just make them pay their people better. But that's still at odds with two thing. 1) it will increase incentive for more automation - but that's already happening as fast as the engineers can do it. 2) it will increase the incentive to use undocumented workers who can be paid under the table below minimum wage. Before we can talk…

3) it will increase the incentive to send work offshore to poorer countries

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#292

Post by jdlyga »

arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

I hear the west coast is like that. I work out of New York, and it feels a lot more egalitarian with a variety of different types of jobs.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#293

Post by kiliantics »

linkmotif wrote: post #271
arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

Poor people could do well in America if they made economic decisions that led to them accumulating wealth.

Ah yes, poor because they are not smart. Because the US is a perfect meritocracy. This is ludicrously off the mark and shows how out of touch people really are about how the world works for others.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#294

Post by phkahler »

slantyyz wrote: post #291
phkahler wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm beginning to think increasing minimum wage will help. You don't need to tax the rich, just make them pay their people better. But that's still at odds with two thing. 1) it will increase incentive for more automation - but that's already happening as fast as the engineers can do it. 2) it will increase the incentive to use undocumented workers who can be paid under the table below minimum wage. Before we can talk…

3) it will increase the incentive to send work offshore to poorer countries

Import tariffs - standard solution to that. The folks yelling "free trade" don't acknowledge that we don't actually have free trade in the first place. All these things need to be kept in balance. It's hard, but that's what governing is supposed to be about.

edit. Actually no. Most of the jobs we're talking about are local. Importing stuff from cheaper places is similar to automation.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#295

Post by panzagl »

svantana wrote: post #247
sol_remmy2 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western European countries hardly take immigrants. When you live in a homogenous, solely middle-class country like Sweden/Denmark/Norway, of course everything seems nice and comfortable. But America accepts some very poor immigrants and allows them to make money and be lifted up. Those are many of the people you saw on the bus.

Easily disproven statement by looking at real stats [1], where most western european countries are ahead of the US. If you're suggesting those immigrants are not "poor", consider the Syrian crisis, Germany and Sweden were by far the largest takers of syrian refugees in the west, while the US hardly took any syrians at all. In fact, I read somewhere that Sweden in 2015 was the largest taker of refugees per capita from…

That link shows that the US took in twice as many immigrants as the entire EU. Per capita doesn't mean much at this scale- the 5 million the US took the year before don't magically become middle class taxpayers just because a year has passed.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#296

Post by shanusmagnus »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #211
wincy wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My kid is disabled and I have severe anxiety and suffered depression. I live right in the middle of the US. I didn’t start my tech career until 28 because of all that, but I’m doing ok. I live in a big house with good schools. From what I’ve gathered of non-US (European) tech jobs, I’d never have gotten an opportunity to work as a programmer because I never got a bachelors degree. Maybe it isn’t like that everywhere,…

if the safety net was too comfortable I doubt I’d have ever felt the need to climb out of it Americans have been conditioned into accepting a staggering amount of abuse and into perpetuating that abuse.

Come on, dude. Accusing people who disagree with you of having been brainwashed is a pretty weak discussion strategy.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#297

Post by linkmotif »

lghh wrote: post #280
linkmotif wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teaching is a straw man. Teachers get paid poorly because (1) Americans don’t actually care about education, as evidenced by the amount teachers make, and (2) it’s a government-based monopoly that prioritizes “benefits” and graft (tenure, etc) over salary

Straw men don't exist, my wife does exist.

But you use her in logic based arguments and then appeal to emotion so.... which is it?

Your gripe shouldn’t be with rich people, it should be with Americans en masse, who yelled and screamed all Sunday night in my apartment building about grown men running into each other on TV with such a passion you’d think they were educating their children. And then they’re poor? Boo hoo. Maybe if Americans cared about education, showed passion for it like they do about Football, I would understand. You get paid 3x your wife because Americans care about what you produce, and they don't care about what she produces.

It’s easy to soak the rich but take a look around you, people prioritize everything except the one thing that matters: education.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#298

Post by [deleted] »

kiliantics wrote: post #293
linkmotif wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor people could do well in America if they made economic decisions that led to them accumulating wealth.

Ah yes, poor because they are not smart. Because the US is a perfect meritocracy. This is ludicrously off the mark and shows how out of touch people really are about how the world works for others.

[deleted]

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#299

Post by threwawasy1228 »

systemtest wrote: post #252
habosa wrote: post #222

I am in favor of higher taxes, but that does not solve the dignity issue at all. Taking from the rich to give to the poor only solidifies the division between the two groups. It makes givers and takers, and there will be resentment on both sides. We as a society need to find a way to not only feed and clothe and house everyone but to give them purpose and a voice. Paying off half the workforce doesn't do it.

This is exactly what is happening right now. I'm a software developer for the Dutch government and I pay about €40.000 per year in income tax. My neighbor has the same lifestyle as me. Same apartment, type of clothing, food and sports. And she even drives a car, I don't. Yet I am gone for work for about 50 hours per week and she lives on the income tax I pay. She doesn't even try to have a job because she is happy wi…

Why don't you quit and work on your own passions and projects for free then? This is what I don't understand about most Europeans. All of my friends in Europe all do exactly what your neighbor is doing, almost all of them just live on welfare and it is great. They have so much money from welfare they can come visit the states and hangout regularly and have endless vacation while getting paid.

All of them use this time to work on interesting personal projects and do really cool work that I love being a part of. I love that they have time to do that and keep working on what they are passionate about without worrying about money.

If I were European I don't think I would do what you do unless I was working at my own personal company. And if I was working for myself at a high enough profit level that taxation would effect me, I would not incorporate my business in Europe at all.

This is just my perspective as a American, but I think this is why this system wouldn't work at all in America, people like me who are completely competent and able to work like me would probably try to get out of working.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#300

Post by slantyyz »

phkahler wrote: post #294
slantyyz wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3) it will increase the incentive to send work offshore to poorer countries

Import tariffs - standard solution to that. The folks yelling "free trade" don't acknowledge that we don't actually have free trade in the first place. All these things need to be kept in balance. It's hard, but that's what governing is supposed to be about. edit. Actually no. Most of the jobs we're talking about are local. Importing stuff from cheaper places is similar to automation.

Those work for goods, but what about services like outsourcing IT and call centers to India?
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