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Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#271

Post by linkmotif »

arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

Poor people could do well in America if they made economic decisions that led to them accumulating wealth.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#272

Post by AllegedAlec »

systemtest wrote: post #214
arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

In places like Amsterdam the poor get a free car (Canta) and a free washing machine (Miele) from the city. It's good that they don't endure hardship, but it also doesn't give them the perspective that you experienced and they may never have enough incentive to make their life better. If people in Amsterdam had to go to the laundromat that could give them the push to find a good job so that they can earn a nice washin…

> In places like Amsterdam the poor get a free car (Canta)

What? A Canta isn't a 'free car' for poor people. It's a mobility vehicle, which you apply for if you're eligible.

As for the washing machine thing: the only thing I found with 5 minutes of google-fu was that there's a on-loan system for people who are already dependent on government grants to be given one if their old one fails (and a few additional requirements). Furthermore: there are barely any laundromats in the Netherlands; it's not part of our culture at all. Hell, I'd be surprised if there are more than 50 in the entirety of Amsterdam (population 800K-900K), and those that are present would probably be near the centre where the hostels are, rather than in the suburbs where the poorer people live.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#273

Post by lghh »

aantix wrote: post #191
Pulcinella wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pretty negative outlook on humanity. People do things for reasons other than making money. Also seeing your boss put in a third the effort and produce 10 times the paycheck is also demoralizing...

Of course they do. They’re called hobbies. But do they take massive risks without potential massive reward? A lot wouldn’t. Unless they’re under the rule of a dictator and their life is threatened. That’s an incentive.

Most people who can take "massive risks" end up, at worst, in the same situation as the average American if they fail. The average American, on the other hand, can't take those risks at all because they could end up homeless or with mountains of medical debt. Reducing how far you can fall would allow for more risks to be taken.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#274

Post by Domenic_S »

wil421 wrote: post #209
Domenic_S wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been in tech my whole professional life and I can't relate to the second class at all. The technologically enabled upper middle class are fighting over Yeezys, Supreme drops, and Rolexes (seriously, try to find any of those at retail price). My neighborhood is filled with WFH techies, and we all head outside in the evening for our kids to ride bikes with each other while we sample microbrews together. Those truc…

You do know a lot of trade people either have a truck stipended or if they are self employed the business pays the bill. My friend is an electrician on commercial sites. He gets a $600-$700 truck stipen from his employer.

I don’t dispute that at all, what I was responding to was gp’s remark that a $50k vehicle “offends their sensibilities”.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#275

Post by Daishiman »

rock_hard wrote: post #227
arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

When I came to America I had nothing: no social network, no college degree, no money! But America is a place full of opportunity and so after 10 years here and a lot of work I can look back and say that am much happier than I ever was in Europe since the day I got here! The deal is simple: work hard and the sky is the limit. I started a family, have worked at Fortune 20 companies in management positions, bought a hou…

Statistically speaking, you're wrong; class mobility in Western Europe is equal to or better than in the US.

Good thing you found a country where the culture might have helped you do things you didn't feel like doing back home, but don talk about it as though your personal experience is universal to all, because the numbers tell otherwise.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#276

Post by lghh »

supermw wrote: post #262
cmsonger wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone else does not have to do badly for you to do better.

As an individual I am hardly responsible for others doing badly.

In a society that rewards hoarding the finite capital that exists, you sort of are.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#277

Post by Daishiman »

systemtest wrote: post #240
GVIrish wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if that really makes sense. By that logic, the more miserable we make life for poor people, the more motivation they will have to get out of that life. A good social safety net means that poor people are not so busy trying to survive that they actually have the opportunity to improve their lot in life if they so choose. If you're not burning up 4 hours a day commuting and several hours a week washing clo…

A safety net should not become a hammock.

Why not?

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#278

Post by linkmotif »

lghh wrote: post #267
aantix wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without incentives, there is no innovation. And if everyone is entitled to the same portion of the pie, what’s the incentive to work harder? Seeing your neighbor put in a third of the effort and produce the same economic result is demoralizing.

Trust me, I don't work 3x harder than most of the people I make 3x of. My wife is a teacher and I am in tech, I make 3x her salary. She works way more and spends more of both her physical and emotional labor on her job. I work hard and I do good work, but what she does is not even in the same stratosphere as what I do. I'm not innovating anything, I'm just writing decent code. She's finding new ways to help kids lear…

Teaching is a straw man. Teachers get paid poorly because (1) Americans don’t actually care about education, as evidenced by the amount teachers make, and (2) it’s a government-based monopoly that prioritizes “benefits” and graft (tenure, etc) over salary

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#279

Post by hoaw »

wincy wrote: post #197
arandr0x wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just think people who come in late at the party because their kid was sick and they're mentally ill and they live way out in the middle of the country and there's no pie left should at least get a couple apples or something.

My kid is disabled and I have severe anxiety and suffered depression. I live right in the middle of the US. I didn’t start my tech career until 28 because of all that, but I’m doing ok. I live in a big house with good schools. From what I’ve gathered of non-US (European) tech jobs, I’d never have gotten an opportunity to work as a programmer because I never got a bachelors degree. Maybe it isn’t like that everywhere,…

I think that is a very weird conclusion. In Europe, because there is a safety net, there is mostly nothing to "climb out of". Working a menial job and/or playing video games before going on to university or getting a career is mostly ordinary. At least half the people I work with don't have bachelors degrees. The US actually has as high, and often higher, amounts of degrees per capita compared to European countries. Also none of my friends who were into computers growing up are doing badly relatively speaking. Which is largely a factor of the tech industry and not society.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#280

Post by lghh »

linkmotif wrote: post #278
lghh wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust me, I don't work 3x harder than most of the people I make 3x of. My wife is a teacher and I am in tech, I make 3x her salary. She works way more and spends more of both her physical and emotional labor on her job. I work hard and I do good work, but what she does is not even in the same stratosphere as what I do. I'm not innovating anything, I'm just writing decent code. She's finding new ways to help kids lear…

Teaching is a straw man. Teachers get paid poorly because (1) Americans don’t actually care about education, as evidenced by the amount teachers make, and (2) it’s a government-based monopoly that prioritizes “benefits” and graft (tenure, etc) over salary

Straw men don't exist, my wife does exist.
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