Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#281

Post by mkirklions » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 3:44 PM UTC

fineIllregister wrote: post #249

supermw wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I put in my time, if I learn valuable skills, if I make smart choices, if I choose to do something complex over something menial, then I would want to see myself doing better than people who did not choose to do those things, no matter how nice and kind they may be. Anything else, would be unfair and make me question the point of my efforts.

This assumes that poor people don't put in time, have valuable skills, make smart choices, or do complex work. It also assumes that they had the choices better than the position they have. There's also another assumption that the protections social safety nets completely eliminate incentive to put in effort. GP didn't say they moved to a nonexistant land where everyone is paid the exact same.

Bad luck is real, but after 30 years of experiences, there is a difference between hard workers and everyone else.

As 'unfair' as we want to believe, over and over, I've seen hardworkers prevail.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#282

Post by CodeCube » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 3:44 PM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #158

tokyodude wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there really such a thing as a post-scarcity society? Certain things will always be scarce. Beachfront real estate. Penthouses. Apartments next to a park or downtown. Sure we can get arguably get to a point where energy, food, and maybe small to medium sized items are free but if Jill Smith wants 400 cars where is she going to put them? Even if we all beam into cyberspace there will not be unlimited storage nor un…

Parent (and the article, although it fails to clearly draw the obvious link) could more accurately be said to be referring to a post- labor scarcity society. In other words, a society where there is more labor available than we actually need to fulfill demand (caveat: in high-productivity industries). To illustrate, take the article's example: the shift from an agricultural to industrial economy. Someone walks off a…

This gets even more "extreme" when we talk about digital artifacts ... once the initial labor of creating a piece of music, or film, or game, or program is expended, the cost of infinitely reproducing copies of those approaches zero in many cases.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#283

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 3:45 PM UTC

rock_hard wrote: post #227

arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

When I came to America I had nothing: no social network, no college degree, no money! But America is a place full of opportunity and so after 10 years here and a lot of work I can look back and say that am much happier than I ever was in Europe since the day I got here! The deal is simple: work hard and the sky is the limit. I started a family, have worked at Fortune 20 companies in management positions, bought a hou…

[deleted]

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#284

Post by sol_remmy2 » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 3:45 PM UTC

svantana wrote: post #247

sol_remmy2 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western European countries hardly take immigrants. When you live in a homogenous, solely middle-class country like Sweden/Denmark/Norway, of course everything seems nice and comfortable. But America accepts some very poor immigrants and allows them to make money and be lifted up. Those are many of the people you saw on the bus.

Easily disproven statement by looking at real stats [1], where most western european countries are ahead of the US. If you're suggesting those immigrants are not "poor", consider the Syrian crisis, Germany and Sweden were by far the largest takers of syrian refugees in the west, while the US hardly took any syrians at all. In fact, I read somewhere that Sweden in 2015 was the largest taker of refugees per capita from…

If you look at immigration rates over the past 50 years, the US comes far far ahead.

The US look a majority of its immigrants in the 90s and early 2000s, while Sweden took near-zero immigrants until 10 years ago.

Additionally, many Western European 'immigrants' are actually just people moving between different Western European countries.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#285

Post by rock_hard » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 3:46 PM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #275

rock_hard wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I came to America I had nothing: no social network, no college degree, no money! But America is a place full of opportunity and so after 10 years here and a lot of work I can look back and say that am much happier than I ever was in Europe since the day I got here! The deal is simple: work hard and the sky is the limit. I started a family, have worked at Fortune 20 companies in management positions, bought a hou…

Statistically speaking, you're wrong; class mobility in Western Europe is equal to or better than in the US. Good thing you found a country where the culture might have helped you do things you didn't feel like doing back home, but don talk about it as though your personal experience is universal to all, because the numbers tell otherwise.

I am aware of the numbers...but I don’t think they paint the whole picture.

But that’s besides the point, the point I was trying to make is that America worked much better for a person like me.

Likewise I can imagine a place like Europe working better for some folks.

If only people had free mobility...maybe everybody could just love in a place that works for them

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#286

Post by slantyyz » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 3:47 PM UTC

habosa wrote: post #222

I am in favor of higher taxes, but that does not solve the dignity issue at all. Taking from the rich to give to the poor only solidifies the division between the two groups. It makes givers and takers, and there will be resentment on both sides. We as a society need to find a way to not only feed and clothe and house everyone but to give them purpose and a voice. Paying off half the workforce doesn't do it.

>> It makes givers and takers, and there will be resentment on both sides.

This is oversimplified. There are already takers across both groups, except that the taking is pretty much always looked at more negatively when done by the poor.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#287

Post by anonuser123456 » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 3:47 PM UTC

normal_man wrote: post #173

aantix wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without incentives, there is no innovation. And if everyone is entitled to the same portion of the pie, what’s the incentive to work harder? Seeing your neighbor put in a third of the effort and produce the same economic result is demoralizing.

I think the idea that free-market capitalism drives innovation is not something you can take for granted at all. How many companies making copycat apps that serve no purpose or complete bullshit like Juicero get millions in funding?

You literally gave an example for why free-market capitalism supports innovation; e.g. the product was stupid and the market rejected it.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#288

Post by linkmotif » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 3:47 PM UTC

arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

> I eventually went back to a country with a social safety net where the working class people on my bus talk about their vacations.

I sincerely wish that everyone who wanted socialism just went to a socialist country instead of trying to import it here, and I really appreciate that you did. Thank you! We can admire and appreciate each other from afar. (100% genuine, well intended comment here). My family came to the US from a socialist country, seeking freedom and capitalism. I have no idea what to do now that socialism is arriving here.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#289

Post by tomjen3 » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 3:47 PM UTC

gotocake wrote: post #81

olleromam91 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you said the answer right there. They die.

Or they riot and rebel. The surest way to see how violent people can be is to offer them no choice in the matter. This is a country with a lot of guns, tons of space, and a poorly paid police and military. It’s not hard to imagine how the prospect of a quiet, ignominious death would go over. There are already militias and preppers, and I for one want those movements to do something other than flourish and expand.

If they rebel, then either there is a use for some of them for guards, or those we can hire for guards are better (and will win).

The US indeed have a large amount of land and many guns, but that land is already termed "fly-over" country, do you think most people on the coasts care if somebody runs around up in the Apalachian mountains with a gun shouting down with the rich?

If (which I do not believe) those persons will have no value at all, we will deal with them when/if they riot.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#290

Post by shanusmagnus » Tue, Feb 05, 2019, 3:48 PM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #199

arandr0x wrote: post #156

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a soc…

I work in tech. My wife does not. We came to the EU and I noticed that I make a good deal less, but she makes more. Even more important, though, instead of me getting lots of vacation time and her getting almost nothing, we both get a month off a year, protected by law (no bullshit "unlimited vacation" policy can take it away). We can finally take proper holidays together. Life is better here.

To add alternate experience to the children of this post, I worked for a company w/ unlimited vacation, and while I took very little vacation, there was no pressure from outside to limit it. Other people tended to work less than I did and took vacation more or less in line with what they would have done elsewhere.

I wouldn't take unlimited vacation as a sign of anything other than "we expect you to be reasonable and we don't want to micro-manage everything." Although if my experience had been different, I might think different.