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Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#151

Post by Dumblydorr »

jedberg wrote: post #2

There are two solutions: Part one, a more educated populace. Education will help those that can work in the "good jobs" get the good jobs. Part two, tax policy. Wealth needs to be redistributed so that there are masses to buy the products that the wealthy are creating. Edit: I just watched this post go up to 10 points, down to 3 and then back to 5. Clearly this is controversial. I find it interesting that wealth redi…

We already have wealth distribution: the rich get their lawyers to allow them to dodge taxes and jail time, just furthering their ability to gain more wealth, while the rest of us play by their trickle down rigged tax system.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#152

Post by Dumblydorr »

0x445442 wrote: post #148
jedberg wrote: post #2

There are two solutions: Part one, a more educated populace. Education will help those that can work in the "good jobs" get the good jobs. Part two, tax policy. Wealth needs to be redistributed so that there are masses to buy the products that the wealthy are creating. Edit: I just watched this post go up to 10 points, down to 3 and then back to 5. Clearly this is controversial. I find it interesting that wealth redi…

>> Is it really just "I worked hard for it why should I give it away" No it's more "I worked hard for it why should it be taken from me by force or fiat". I've found most folks who are well off (not living hand to mouth) are willing, and do give to charity. It's when some other group of people start demanding this behavior through governmental force when attitudes change.

I give to charity too, so what? They live and got lucky in the country they are then refusing to assist proportionally with their means. Most of them are not Bill Gates, while they toss their pocket change to some charities, they lobby to Congress for favorable laws and live an insular existence that doesn't go near the common man.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#153

Post by jakelazaroff »

malandrew wrote: post #93
toomanybeersies wrote: post #27

The problem is that as a society we believe that people need to work 40 hours a week to survive. We replace people with robots and retain the same output. We are more productive than ever before, yet work the same amount. Physical and uneducated work is being replaced by automation, yet we expect these people replaced by robots to find jobs to survive where there are now none. I don't believe in Universal Basic Incom…

The problem with moving from 8 hours to 6 hours is that there will always be workers willing to do 10 hours or even 12 hours. These workers end up producing 50-100% more with about the same overhead. If you have a worker that will work 12 hours, you only need to pay for one health insurance plan as opposed to having to pay for two insurance plans if you need to get two 6-hour employees. On top of that, the 12-hour em…

So, basically how things are today?

With regard to health insurance specifically, the way to solve that is moving the burden of healthcare from the employer to the state.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#154

Post by zimablue »

atemerev wrote: post #80
whateveracct wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is redistribution of wealthy any more unfair than the circumstances that gave rise to it in the first place? Nobody inherently deserves their wealth - it's largely a function of circumstance.

It is my wealth that is going to be “redistributed”. I am a relatively well off software engineer; I was born in a poor family on the outskirts of a Siberian town. I learned to program all on my own, by visiting my friends with computers and taking programming books from the local library. It wasn’t a “function of circumstance” — it was a function of my interest and targeted activity. What is unfair here?

It depends on what sort of redistribution you talk about.

Picketty argues that we tax income but not wealth and that's the root of our problems. I would imagine that your income is a way higher percentile than your wealth, income middle-class like you and me get smashed by income taxes (as someone from the working class in the UK it absolutely blew my mind when I learned how much wealth the people all around me had in their families, even just upper-middle class).

https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile-calculator-united-sta...

$1,000,000 in wealth is near the 88% in America.

If you're hanging around with people whose families live in the nice parts of London/(a major city), assume they're the top 10% ~ 1 million, assume 4% returns above inflation, they make 50k a YEAR from their assets, totally passively.

So their wealth income is way more than some relatives of mine TOTAL household income.

In effect, the upper-middle-classes are born on basic income. If you're trying to make moeny yourself - just attend that university, take that MBA course, spend 5 years on a very risky career path with internships (journalism, media). There's no point you have to worry if you can afford it you can just play a very long low-probability high upside game.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#155

Post by NoblePublius »

This guy will probably be feted across academia for his insight, even though it’s fundamentally the same argument made in The Bell Curve that gets Charles Murray banned from college campuses. Yes, the cognitive elite is a thing and no, they don’t work at Walmart. There is no answer to this problem, either.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#156

Post by arandr0x »

I saw this when I arrived in America, and it's the reason I left. I take the bus and seeing literally every day that there were people with families who worried and laughed and were kind who spent 2 hours a day transporting themselves to service or manufacturing industry job when I sat in an air conditioned office making 3x their wages was making me feel terribly guilty. I eventually went back to a country with a social safety net where the working class people on my bus talk about their vacations.

Maybe if the "favored class" Americans took the bus or went to the laundromat like I did for years they'd want poor people to do well too.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#157

Post by hoaw »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #137
baroffoos wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew a guy who worked 6 months a year doing contract work and then spent the other 6 months on hobbies and personal projects. I remember asking him if he gets bored during those 6 months not working and he said to me "I don't base my life enjoyment off of making someone else money". That advice has really stuck to me and its really cool to see the electronics projects he builds in those 6 months.

That sounds pretty pleasurable. IIRC that second six months is the true classical definition of a life of leisure.

I have done similar things and it generally isn't. Or it is getting very hard to make it so.

Western society has become much more hierarchical in recent years. It is harder and harder to find any "cracks in system" on a fundamental level. Even if you would consider leisure to be neutral, and not in need of meaning, most people aren't even starting from a neutral point. So if you do something else you end up being underprivileged rather than in leisure.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#158

Post by ethbro »

tokyodude wrote: post #149
TomMckenny wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Higher wages with shorter work hours would be a great step in the right direction. I believe Keynes even suggested it. But, a post-scarcity society, where labor is nearly valueless, still requires everyone have their needs met regardless of what they "own". But in that future as through all the past, most people are born owning little more than their labor. So a post-scarcity society does not just require the technol…

Is there really such a thing as a post-scarcity society? Certain things will always be scarce. Beachfront real estate. Penthouses. Apartments next to a park or downtown. Sure we can get arguably get to a point where energy, food, and maybe small to medium sized items are free but if Jill Smith wants 400 cars where is she going to put them? Even if we all beam into cyberspace there will not be unlimited storage nor un…

Parent (and the article, although it fails to clearly draw the obvious link) could more accurately be said to be referring to a post-labor scarcity society.

In other words, a society where there is more labor available than we actually need to fulfill demand (caveat: in high-productivity industries).

To illustrate, take the article's example: the shift from an agricultural to industrial economy. Someone walks off a farm, they get employment in a factor. That factory worker can make 10-100 widgets / hr based on their labor.

Now look at the post-industrial economy we live in now. In software and heavily automated industries, the same single laborer can make 10-1,000,000 "copies" of their work product.

It seems fairly obvious there would be a breaking point at which productivity is so high that it disengages from driving demand. One worker can only buy so much, and his or her fellows can't buy anything because they're not employed.

Re: Tech Is Splitting the U.S. Work Force in Two

#159

Post by mcherm »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #27

The problem is that as a society we believe that people need to work 40 hours a week to survive. We replace people with robots and retain the same output. We are more productive than ever before, yet work the same amount. Physical and uneducated work is being replaced by automation, yet we expect these people replaced by robots to find jobs to survive where there are now none. I don't believe in Universal Basic Incom…

But I DON'T work just 40 hours a week. I work more like 50-55 hours most weeks. I LIKE my work, and I don't want to do less.

I agree that the belief that we must work 40 hours a week in order to be a good person lies at the root of many of society's problems. And I do think that people ought to contribute to society. But somehow that does not lead me away from the idea of a Universal Basic Income, but instead leads me to believe that something roughly that shape is what we need to save society.

I guess the key difference is who defines "contribute to society". If it is employers, then we need a system where as many people as possible must report to an employer who controls how they spend their time. (Requiring people to get paid a salary seems to do that quite effectively.) If it is the government that defines how one ought to "contribute to society" then we get mandated work programs. But if you believe that each individual is the best judge of how they ought to "contribute to society" then it leads to the belief that we should order society such that as many individuals as possible have a choice about how they spend their time. Some variant of UBI seems to me like a good way to achieve that goal in a society no longer tightly constrained by scarcity.

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