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Let Children Get Bored Again

nytimes.com

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Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#91

Post by celticninja »

leetcrew wrote: post #55
lytedev wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but doesn't it work pretty differently? With books, you're just given words and your brain has to fill in the gaps and actually do some work. With video games and movies, your brain is directly stimulated; shown what to see and hear.

I know this is the common argument, but I'm not entirely convinced. when I was a kid, the graphics were quite primitive by today's standards, but playing the games at that age felt like stepping into a vivid other world. playing as an adult, I just see a bunch of geometry with shitty lighting while I run around clicking on HP sponges. I wouldn't say that video games are quite as stimulating as reading a good book, bu…

A book makes you use your own imagination. Video games take the bulk of that work away from you so it's easier initially but imagination can easily outdo the games in the medium to long term (if you persevere)

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#92

Post by mmmmpancakes »

marcell wrote: post #86
mmmmpancakes wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“By 18, a very bored kid left to chance will have found an unhealthy outlet like drinking or property theft.” Do you have some statistics to back up this claim, along with a comparison against teens who are not bored?

You’re trying to analyze raising children scientifically, and I think that’s impossible. You can never measure bored teens against non-bored teens in any meaningful way. No parent will want to, or be able to participate in a scientific study to tests the effects of boredom on their teens. What would that even look like? Randomize parents in two groups, and have them change their parenting in prescribed ways? No paren…

“You’re trying to analyze raising children scientifically, and I think that’s impossible.”

You lost me already. You are flippantly dismissing everyone in developmental psychology and related fields with no justification.

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#93

Post by sl1ck731 »

When my family went through hard times in High School our internet was cut. Basically every interest I had was pulled out from under me (gaming). I ended up going to the local library during this time after months of crushing boredom and reading a lot of books like the CompTIA Linux, CEH, random programming books.

I always wonder what I would be like if I didn't go through this phase at such a crucial time. It refocused me right before college and let me explore things that would otherwise have been boring.

Now that I'm doing well I can't find the same focus for things I want to learn because of all the other luxuries I have.

I can't imagine how kids that don't struggle like I did will gain that sort of clarity. Of course there are those who will just want to do those things, but I would argue that is the minority.

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#94

Post by [deleted] »

solipsism wrote: post #59
hombre_fatal wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's some truth to that, though. As a former video game addict, I look back on my time spent gaming as largely a waste. Most of it was a compulsion, like staying up until 4am re-queuing in Dota. Or grinding some armor piece. But I don't look back with regret on any of my time spent reading. I think most people here know what I'm talking about. Why is that? I can think of a few guesses. Books aren't in the…

I don't look back with regret on any of my time spent reading. I think most people here know what I'm talking about. Why is that? Easy one. It's because this is how society teaches you to feel. You grew up in a world where schools tell you read anything you can get your hands on. They have book fairs, summer reading contests, entire libraries full of both nonfiction and fiction. It's drilled into your from an early a…

[deleted]

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#95

Post by ThalesX »

edanm wrote: post #81
coryrc wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's whether there's a story line or not; playing Mass Effect is going to give you a book-like experience while DotA is just a time filler.

As is chess, and yet most people don't seem to have a problem with kids playing a lot of chess, and encourage them to go to chess clubs and compete in it.

It is a personal belief, coming from someone who played a lot of DotA2 and not as much chess.

I think there’s more value to cold calculated strategies in a simple ruleset than to spur of the moment reactions in a dynamic environment.

Then again, I was never a good DotA2 player. Maybe there’s an element I missed that’s closer to chess.

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#96

Post by ThalesX »

IggleSniggle wrote: post #50
joe_the_user wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it is also interesting how they categorize the activities... apparently reading a book doesn’t count as “avoiding boredom”, but playing a video game does... why? - Why? Because a video game move forward at it's speed, setting, since it keeps things going regardless, it's own agenda. A book only moves forward at the speed of a child's own thinking. There's always an opportunity to stop and think when reading a b…

Every game I played as a kid moved at my speed because they were turn based or puzzle based, with the exception of WarCraft. Even many games today that are popular with kids, like Minecraft, can move at real-time speed but still be designed to be self-paced. In Minecraft, there’s always an opportunity to stop and think.

I’ve never played Minecraft but it is my understanding that you have some sort of zombies that come nighfall. If these zombies catch you without shelter, they would presumably kill you.

While this is a simple mechanic, I imagine even this small element of gameplay would turn a player towards thinking about survival rather than taking the opportunity to stop and think.

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#97

Post by jdmichal »

pizza234 wrote: post #74
lytedev wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but doesn't it work pretty differently? With books, you're just given words and your brain has to fill in the gaps and actually do some work. With video games and movies, your brain is directly stimulated; shown what to see and hear.

This reminds me of the very typical discussion about the value of mathematics and the "descendants": physics, chemistry etc. :-) If the ultimate purpose is to "do some work", movies and videogames definitely do: - movies require (in theory) around 90 minutes of undivided attention, which is definitely "work" (how many people can watch an entire movie without peeking at the phone?); additionally, they can be intellect…

I pretty much my ability to easily navigate arbitrary rule sets to games of all types played as a child. And it's a very nice skill to have. After all, code and APIs are just some arbitrary rules...

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#98

Post by ThalesX »

solipsism wrote: post #62
joe_the_user wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it is also interesting how they categorize the activities... apparently reading a book doesn’t count as “avoiding boredom”, but playing a video game does... why? - Why? Because a video game move forward at it's speed, setting, since it keeps things going regardless, it's own agenda. A book only moves forward at the speed of a child's own thinking. There's always an opportunity to stop and think when reading a b…

Because a video game move forward at it's speed, setting, since it keeps things going regardless, it's own agenda. I feel like maybe you've not done much gaming? This sounds like Tipper Gore telling us about how heavy metal music inspires devil worship.

I took a college course in game design, one of the key components of said topic is ‘flow’. You want to keep the player in a state where it’s neither too hard nor too easy for them to continue playing.

Make it too hard and the player loses interest. Make it too easy, the same behavior can be observed.

If you want a game, you want to keep the player in a state of flow, if you can’t do that, the game would presumably not be well received by the players, thus not really a good game.

You achieve flow through gameplay, and if you add gameplay to any medium, does it really keep a neutral agenda? The game needs to push you in one way or the other, else it’s not really a game.

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#99

Post by hopler »

csmeder wrote: post #41

There are two separate issues: A. 1,000 ft view: drugs are bad. Both chemical drugs and electronic entertainment that is engineered to be addictive. Light weight drugs in small doses are less bad: 90s vs now. B. 50,000 ft view: the real problem. When rats are put in normal laboratory settings they choose drugs over food and water if given the choice. Most of our research on addiction is based on this. In a study wher…

The rat park study found that a good environment did make opioids less attractive, but also found (and downplayed, dishonest science) that rats in the good environment still did prefer opiods to water when the opioids didn't have a bitter taste.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#100

Post by Nasrudith »

jungler wrote: post #77
csmeder wrote: post #41

There are two separate issues: A. 1,000 ft view: drugs are bad. Both chemical drugs and electronic entertainment that is engineered to be addictive. Light weight drugs in small doses are less bad: 90s vs now. B. 50,000 ft view: the real problem. When rats are put in normal laboratory settings they choose drugs over food and water if given the choice. Most of our research on addiction is based on this. In a study wher…

The more I think about the "boredom is good" concept, the more I suspect it's flawed. Bored kids get into trouble, especially as they get older. By 18, a very bored kid left to chance will have found an unhealthy outlet like drinking or property theft. We have a lot of screens now. But it's what one sees and does with the screen that matters. There is an element of media as pollution in this, but it's contrasted agai…

It also isn't new at all - the puritans had similar ideas that took them from ruling England after ousting the king to what may be snarkily summarized "We prefer nobility over these self-rightious fundamentalists wankers."

It is a toxic "your misery is good for you because it flatters my ego" attitude mixed in with nostalgia for a past that never was.

Being able to deal with boredom productively is useful but that doesn't make boredom a virtue or a good way to promote it any more than being able to stay sane in maximum security with only a library makes isolation a virtue and solitary confinement a good way to promote sanity and literacy.

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