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Let Children Get Bored Again

nytimes.com

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Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#81

Post by edanm »

coryrc wrote: post #76
hombre_fatal wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's some truth to that, though. As a former video game addict, I look back on my time spent gaming as largely a waste. Most of it was a compulsion, like staying up until 4am re-queuing in Dota. Or grinding some armor piece. But I don't look back with regret on any of my time spent reading. I think most people here know what I'm talking about. Why is that? I can think of a few guesses. Books aren't in the…

It's whether there's a story line or not; playing Mass Effect is going to give you a book-like experience while DotA is just a time filler.

As is chess, and yet most people don't seem to have a problem with kids playing a lot of chess, and encourage them to go to chess clubs and compete in it.

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#82

Post by slipperymate »

lytedev wrote: post #53
nitrogen wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Books were an escape vehicle before TV, movies, and games.

Sure, but doesn't it work pretty differently? With books, you're just given words and your brain has to fill in the gaps and actually do some work. With video games and movies, your brain is directly stimulated; shown what to see and hear.

With video games you at least develop hand-held coordination, and in some, tactical skills. As for movies I'm not so sure, but for people who critique or study them it's at least beneficial.

hand-eye

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#83

Post by bitexploder »

dkersten wrote: post #75
leetcrew wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is the common argument, but I'm not entirely convinced. when I was a kid, the graphics were quite primitive by today's standards, but playing the games at that age felt like stepping into a vivid other world. playing as an adult, I just see a bunch of geometry with shitty lighting while I run around clicking on HP sponges. I wouldn't say that video games are quite as stimulating as reading a good book, bu…

And how we used to think whatever the latest in graphics was, was oh so realistic and amazing! I played MUD’s for a few years when I was younger and in hindsight it was amazing: while the writing wasn’t typically as good as a book, you still filled in the world and characters with your imagination and it was both interactive and social. I still have some vivid memories of it that are as clear as if it had been a mode…

Some MUDs back in the day had combat and skill systems as complex as any modern MMOs. They were the precursor to MMORPG.

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#84

Post by mmmmpancakes »

jungler wrote: post #77
csmeder wrote: post #41

There are two separate issues: A. 1,000 ft view: drugs are bad. Both chemical drugs and electronic entertainment that is engineered to be addictive. Light weight drugs in small doses are less bad: 90s vs now. B. 50,000 ft view: the real problem. When rats are put in normal laboratory settings they choose drugs over food and water if given the choice. Most of our research on addiction is based on this. In a study wher…

The more I think about the "boredom is good" concept, the more I suspect it's flawed. Bored kids get into trouble, especially as they get older. By 18, a very bored kid left to chance will have found an unhealthy outlet like drinking or property theft. We have a lot of screens now. But it's what one sees and does with the screen that matters. There is an element of media as pollution in this, but it's contrasted agai…

“By 18, a very bored kid left to chance will have found an unhealthy outlet like drinking or property theft.”

Do you have some statistics to back up this claim, along with a comparison against teens who are not bored?

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#85

Post by voidpointercast »

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #80
pizza234 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of the very typical discussion about the value of mathematics and the "descendants": physics, chemistry etc. :-) If the ultimate purpose is to "do some work", movies and videogames definitely do: - movies require (in theory) around 90 minutes of undivided attention, which is definitely "work" (how many people can watch an entire movie without peeking at the phone?); additionally, they can be intellect…

Where do games like Screeps, Dwarf Fortress, RimWorld, Factorio, or Minecraft feature? Leveraging (or demanding) the user's creativity and construction to meaningfully drive gameplay (though how meaningfully varies) is like opening an extra dimension compared to games where you're only meant to respond to stimuli relatively simply, like Papers, Please.

Dwarf Fortress is a helluva thing, good reference. I'd argue that's just as demanding as any IRL project and it requires planning, forethought, and myriad other detail and macro oriented skills.

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#86

Post by marcell »

mmmmpancakes wrote: post #84
jungler wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more I think about the "boredom is good" concept, the more I suspect it's flawed. Bored kids get into trouble, especially as they get older. By 18, a very bored kid left to chance will have found an unhealthy outlet like drinking or property theft. We have a lot of screens now. But it's what one sees and does with the screen that matters. There is an element of media as pollution in this, but it's contrasted agai…

“By 18, a very bored kid left to chance will have found an unhealthy outlet like drinking or property theft.” Do you have some statistics to back up this claim, along with a comparison against teens who are not bored?

You’re trying to analyze raising children scientifically, and I think that’s impossible.

You can never measure bored teens against non-bored teens in any meaningful way. No parent will want to, or be able to participate in a scientific study to tests the effects of boredom on their teens. What would that even look like? Randomize parents in two groups, and have them change their parenting in prescribed ways? No parent would agree to that.

Even if you did that study, and parents didn’t fail to follow the instructions, the results wouldn’t be applicable. Humans are different. What works for one teen may be counterproductive for another. You could get an average impact of 0, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t impact on a per-teen basis.

And of course, you don’t even know what outcome you want to optimize for. Is it grades? Number of friends? Salary at age 35?

Raising kids is (for better or worse) completely unscientific. Discussions are based in anecdotes and personal experience, not statistics.

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#88

Post by vharuck »

This subject is prone to so many reasoning traps.

- The "problem" is with the current generation of children, so their future character is pure speculation.

- The media consumed is seen as new. This means people believe (rightly or wrongly) it affects children very differently. Paradoxically, these same people claim to know how it affects them, despite it being new.

- People are tempted to argue using childhood memories, despite being a child with limited understanding, the mutation of memories over time, and the limited sample size of other kids you knew. Those other kids were also only kids who knew you, meaning they weren't asocial and likely went outside.

This isn't to say we can never know. Just that disciplined experiments are necessary to avoid all these subjective pits.

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#89

Post by NeedMoreTea »

jungler wrote: post #77
csmeder wrote: post #41

There are two separate issues: A. 1,000 ft view: drugs are bad. Both chemical drugs and electronic entertainment that is engineered to be addictive. Light weight drugs in small doses are less bad: 90s vs now. B. 50,000 ft view: the real problem. When rats are put in normal laboratory settings they choose drugs over food and water if given the choice. Most of our research on addiction is based on this. In a study wher…

The more I think about the "boredom is good" concept, the more I suspect it's flawed. Bored kids get into trouble, especially as they get older. By 18, a very bored kid left to chance will have found an unhealthy outlet like drinking or property theft. We have a lot of screens now. But it's what one sees and does with the screen that matters. There is an element of media as pollution in this, but it's contrasted agai…

Bored kids who are always bored and have no outlets to stem that boredom often get into trouble. I think that's pretty well known and correlated. It's a picture that's been seen in countless deprived areas. Some will make their own outlets that might include drink or crime. Others will make their own constructive outlets.

I doubt that degree of chance is what anyone is advocating. Instead a little dead time, or space to be bored every day or two is often the spark for something creative. Make a Lego model, draw a picture, go out on bikes for an hour, kick a football round the back garden, etc etc.

Re: Let Children Get Bored Again

#90

Post by celticninja »

nitrogen wrote: post #51
clubm8 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I think the issue is, and I struggled for a long time to articulate this... escape. I have always struggled with a cluster of issues... too much tv, too much internet, for a period in college binge drinking, overeating... the big "aha!" was that I was engaging in these behaviors to escape reality. We live in a unique time where if you don't like the reality you're in, you can step into another. Society has…

Books were an escape vehicle before TV, movies, and games.

Yup and I frequently used them as such. Of course these days that seems tame, but there was a time when the printed word probably spelled the downfall of society for some group too.
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