EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone • Hacker News Board

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#321

Post by jpatokal » Sat, Feb 02, 2019, 3:37 AM UTC

wahern wrote: post #313

FabHK wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nearly constant cultural boundaries is fermented foods Interesting point. I think with horror of the "1000 year old eggs" in China. Kimchi is somewhat more agreeable... somewhat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_egg

I dunno. Objectively speaking, cheese is pretty disgusting. I've eaten all kinds of things, including infamous items like balut, dog, stinky tofu, belacan, sheep brain, etc. I'm American and grew up with cheese and love cheese, but after having eaten all of those other things, you realize that the disgust factor of, say, a colorful, pungent chunk of blue cheese is exceptionally high. The smell, the texture, the mouth…

Not sure what's up with the downvotes here, since this is objectively correct.

A Chinese friend of mine loves to regale listeners with tales of eating things consider outre even by famously expansive Cantonese standards (live mice etc), but he considers the idea of eating rotten, moldy cow lactations (blue cheese) to be beyond the pale.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#322

Post by ekianjo » Sat, Feb 02, 2019, 4:08 AM UTC

rodgerd wrote: post #274

Barrin92 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprised this was being downvoted because it is true. If countries engage in protectionism unilaterally, they are predominantly harming their own consumers and undermining competition of their own businesses. As Friedman used to point out, if Japan wants to subsidize its steel at the cost of their own taxpayers, just take the cheap steel and be thankful for it.

> If countries engage in protectionism unilaterally, they are predominantly harming their own consumers and undermining competition of their own businesses. That must be why economies such as China, Japan, and South Korea stayed economic basket cases in the late 20th century. Because of their protectionism.

Japan is definitely harming its own citizens since they have to pay high price for about everything compared to the standards of about every other country out there. When something is too expensive you dont buy it anymore and it reduces internal growth.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#323

Post by zeroname » Sat, Feb 02, 2019, 4:09 AM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #277

zeroname wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's basically the fallacy of predatory pricing. It doesn't work. Sure, you can raise prices after killing the competition, but only so far as to not revive the competition. Your price ends up as the fair market price . Cost of entry is irrelevant here, it's a cost like any other.

Sure, except that reviving the competition costs money in its own right many times - it's usually not a Bitcoin miner that can be turned off when it's unprofitable and turned on again with the flick of a switch when it becomes profitable to run. So your price ends up at fair market price... when averaged over many decades, maybe, but likely not for long at any particular point in time. And in the meantime workers get…

First of all, where's the evidence of these supposed high-entry monopolies? Seems more like a thought experiment to me.

Secondly, you're only looking at the negative consequences for some workers. You're not looking at the benefit to all workers, who pay lower prices as result of cheaper labor from abroad.

Suppose workers had been guaranteed their jobs for life because of protectionist policies. This is called mercantilism. Everybody pays more for everyone else's labor and nobody can benefit from comparative advantage. As a result, everyone is poorer. This has been known for centuries and it has been accepted by economists across the political spectrum. Yet politically, protectionism never ceases to lose appeal.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#324

Post by ekianjo » Sat, Feb 02, 2019, 4:14 AM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #289

Barrin92 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprised this was being downvoted because it is true. If countries engage in protectionism unilaterally, they are predominantly harming their own consumers and undermining competition of their own businesses. As Friedman used to point out, if Japan wants to subsidize its steel at the cost of their own taxpayers, just take the cheap steel and be thankful for it.

VAT in the EU behaves in a similar manner as a tariff would. Yet we seem to be doing rather okay in that sense.

with that kind of logic then you should increase VAT 3 or 4 fold and things would be even better for everyone?

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#325

Post by maxerickson » Sat, Feb 02, 2019, 4:15 AM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #277

zeroname wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's basically the fallacy of predatory pricing. It doesn't work. Sure, you can raise prices after killing the competition, but only so far as to not revive the competition. Your price ends up as the fair market price . Cost of entry is irrelevant here, it's a cost like any other.

Sure, except that reviving the competition costs money in its own right many times - it's usually not a Bitcoin miner that can be turned off when it's unprofitable and turned on again with the flick of a switch when it becomes profitable to run. So your price ends up at fair market price... when averaged over many decades, maybe, but likely not for long at any particular point in time. And in the meantime workers get…

The electric furnaces that dominate the modern US steel industry sort of are like bitcoin miners that can be turned on and off. They often only run during times when electricity is cheaper.

Not entirely of course, but the ratio of labor to productivity is really large, they don't engage a lot of workers to begin with. Look at how much larger the electricity costs are than labor:

https://www.steelonthenet.com/cost-eaf.html

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#326

Post by maxerickson » Sat, Feb 02, 2019, 4:21 AM UTC

ascar wrote: post #275

athenot wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheese (at least in France) is not a topping but something consumed after the main course (and with bread). I could see a donbury followed by some mild cheeses. Perhaps stronger cheeses might even go with bonito flakes or other dried fish products. I'm sure some experimentation in pairing could yield some interesting results.

That's probably only France, where cheese after meals is common. While it's frequently used as a topping in Italian cousine, it's nearly exclusively eaten on top of slices of (dark) bread as a standalone dish in German cousine (though Germans eat a lot of Italian food). The most American use of cheese (i.e. not Italian cousine related) is maybe the cheese flavored corn-snacks (e.g. cheetos).

Mac & Cheese though.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#327

Post by maxerickson » Sat, Feb 02, 2019, 4:26 AM UTC

ctrl-j wrote: post #204

stevekemp wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be being a bit of a snob, but in the context of a cheese-related discussion kraft singles don't really rate mention.

Say what you will about Kraft singles, but they melt like nothing else. Kraft doesn't belong everywhere, but it has foodie applications. [0] [0] - https://www.seriouseats.com/2016/07/whats-really-in-american...

You can add emulsifying salts to any cheese you want to use in melted form though.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#328

Post by zeroname » Sat, Feb 02, 2019, 4:28 AM UTC

FabHK wrote: post #248

zeroname wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free trade is great when applied evenly. Free trade is great even when applied unevenly.

Here's one thing I find funny though about this argument (Econ 101, yet correct, yet complicated): The argument for free trade is an efficiency argument (comparative advantage, Ricardo, Hecksher-Ohlin yada yada) that it's unambiguously better, but it's predicated on redistribution: The reason that free trade is unambiguously better is that you can compensate all the "losers" of free trade so that they're as well off…

I don't know where you got this idea, but the argument for comparative advantage has nothing to do with the redistribution of income, nor is there a claim of "fairness" towards each and every individual or interest group.

To understand why comparative advantage is an advantage, you must consider the alternative: Economic protectionism. It results in inefficient allocation of labor, because everyone's job is protected. Everyone pays more for everyone else's labor, everyone is less productive. This affects the poor the most, because they spent the biggest share of their income on basic goods and services.

Of course there are economic winners and losers, but by attempting to fully protect everyone, everyone becomes a loser, as evidenced by the countless failed attempts at socialism.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#329

Post by zeroname » Sat, Feb 02, 2019, 4:39 AM UTC

HillaryBriss wrote: post #262

Barrin92 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprised this was being downvoted because it is true. If countries engage in protectionism unilaterally, they are predominantly harming their own consumers and undermining competition of their own businesses. As Friedman used to point out, if Japan wants to subsidize its steel at the cost of their own taxpayers, just take the cheap steel and be thankful for it.

On the subject of Friedman, what was his take on how to address the deep personal losses suffered by tens of thousands of US based steel industry workers who lose their jobs? Many of these people become unemployed or underemployed for years. They seem to be taking a pretty big loss. Surely Friedman didn't expect them to just "take one for the team." I don't know. Maybe he did? Not sure.

What about the "deep personal losses" suffered in the garment industry, in electronics, in agriculture?

What about all the people that lost their jobs as a result of technological progress? What of those poor ice pickers, who lost their livelihood to the invention of the refrigerator?

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#330

Post by ToFab123 » Sat, Feb 02, 2019, 5:38 AM UTC

This is so awesome news. I see that in the local news this morning, that in my home country (Denmark), this free trade agreement is creating lots of news jobs with companies already announcing hundreds of new job. And this is just one day after the announcement. More of this to come in the next days and weeks.