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EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

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Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#241

Post by drak0n1c »

Foobar8568 wrote: post #218
ctrl-j wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say what you will about Kraft singles, but they melt like nothing else. Kraft doesn't belong everywhere, but it has foodie applications. [0] [0] - https://www.seriouseats.com/2016/07/whats-really-in-american...

Ever tried to grill raclette, vacherinn, gruyère, camembert, reblochon etc? For a couple of raw milk cheeses that are either dedicated to eat grilled/melt or "cold". Anything like Kraft singles is a joke

There's a reason why people say "the best thing since sliced bread". Sliced cheese has similar structural advantages. What is convenient becomes popular - for better or worse.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#242

Post by pathseeker »

TorKlingberg wrote: post #22

Japan has avoided the madness of tariffs and trade wars that has affected the west recently. Instead they have been quietly negotiating trade deals with everyone and generally getting along. Good on them! Also it includes cheese, which will make westerners in Japan very happy.

>Japan has avoided the madness of tariffs and trade wars that has affected the west recently. Instead they have been quietly negotiating trade deals with everyone and generally getting along. Good on them!

Bilateral trade negotiation is exactly what Trump wants thought that's causing all of this shit.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#243

Post by pbhjpbhj »

oaiey wrote: post #233
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you're suggesting that if the EU responded with trade sanctions that we'd ... what, threaten them with nukes? You don't think there might be a point in the future where we want to trade with any of the other 26 countries of the EU ever again? You want to declare war on them to support our project of making UK an economic backwater ... I thought I'd heard it all ... wow. What's your position on importing food? Giv…

What I wanted to express, obviously very bad, that it is just a contract among countries. Powerful countries which cannot be pressured it anything. There will not be nuclear war, food shortages or polish plumpers invasion.

Yes, I'm aware that dishonourable people in powerful positions will ignore their commitments and contractual agreements.

That works, mostly, when you're a large org doing things like not paying workers (but, unions!) or you're a government disenfranchising citizens (but elections, coups), etc..

However, try it with someone who has power over you - like your police force, your bank, your boss ... now realise that the EU is the strongest organisation in the region. We, in the UK, really, really, need them for food security, for energy security, possibly for defense of things keep going the way they are with Russia.

Sure, they want us, but if we piss off the EU even more then we're going to have to dramatically change our lifestyle in order not to starve; and I don't know about you but I want the UK, and the EU, to thrive.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#245

Post by drak0n1c »

mrkstu wrote: post #238
Barrin92 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprised this was being downvoted because it is true. If countries engage in protectionism unilaterally, they are predominantly harming their own consumers and undermining competition of their own businesses. As Friedman used to point out, if Japan wants to subsidize its steel at the cost of their own taxpayers, just take the cheap steel and be thankful for it.

Which works fine until they own a monopoly to a business with high cost of entry and decide to raise prices again. Things like this are rarely simple.

Precisely, if your subsidized monopoly can afford to take the hit for a decade or two - the international competition starts dying, their facilities and towns shutter, and locally accumulated institutional knowledge and its transfer disappears. African agriculture and industry suffered similarly in the 20th century due to decades of ham-fisted global charity (essentially subsidized commodity dumping).

There are complex consequences, and the rebound when opportunities re-emerge isn't anywhere as rapid as the fall.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#247

Post by zeroname »

mrkstu wrote: post #238
Barrin92 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprised this was being downvoted because it is true. If countries engage in protectionism unilaterally, they are predominantly harming their own consumers and undermining competition of their own businesses. As Friedman used to point out, if Japan wants to subsidize its steel at the cost of their own taxpayers, just take the cheap steel and be thankful for it.

Which works fine until they own a monopoly to a business with high cost of entry and decide to raise prices again. Things like this are rarely simple.

That's basically the fallacy of predatory pricing. It doesn't work. Sure, you can raise prices after killing the competition, but only so far as to not revive the competition. Your price ends up as the fair market price. Cost of entry is irrelevant here, it's a cost like any other.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#248

Post by FabHK »

zeroname wrote: post #209
drak0n1c wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those interested in why - Japan always had very high tariffs on cheese (40% on WTO, 37.5% on EU). In comparison, the US has a general tariff of 10% on cheese, with many exceptions making it 0%. http://www.customs.go.jp/english/tariff/2019_2/data/e_04.htm https://hts.usitc.gov/?query=cheese Similarly high tariffs across the board on most imports has been the norm in Japan for decades, with many agricultural produc…

> Free trade is great when applied evenly. Free trade is great even when applied unevenly.

Here's one thing I find funny though about this argument (Econ 101, yet correct, yet complicated):

The argument for free trade is an efficiency argument (comparative advantage, Ricardo, Hecksher-Ohlin yada yada) that it's unambiguously better, but it's predicated on redistribution: The reason that free trade is unambiguously better is that you can compensate all the "losers" of free trade so that they're as well off as before, and you still have extra income left (to distribute, in theory, as desired politically).

Economics mostly shies away from inter-personal utility comparisons (they're hard to grapple with) and prefers the notion of "pareto improvements" (where at least someone is better off without anyone being worse of). Trade theory uses this device of redistribution to show that a free trade is a pareto improvement.

But then, in the real world, many advocates of free trade suddenly forget about this part of the argument, and when some sectors of society profit handsomely and many (often workers) end up on the street, they suddenly remember their free-market credentials and argue that no, one cannot redistribute, the free market is optimal and fair and pays everyone their marginal product and yada yada yada.

Funny, that amnesia in the middle.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#249

Post by ctrl-j »

Foobar8568 wrote: post #218
ctrl-j wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say what you will about Kraft singles, but they melt like nothing else. Kraft doesn't belong everywhere, but it has foodie applications. [0] [0] - https://www.seriouseats.com/2016/07/whats-really-in-american...

Ever tried to grill raclette, vacherinn, gruyère, camembert, reblochon etc? For a couple of raw milk cheeses that are either dedicated to eat grilled/melt or "cold". Anything like Kraft singles is a joke

Of the cheeses you've listed that I have tried, they all have a very strong flavor that would overwhelm a burger - sometimes a mild gooey flavor is exactly what is called for.

Is there a cheese that you would consider to have a very mild chedderish flavor that has a more gooey sticky consistency like american cheese?

What exactly about American cheese do you find so unpalatable?

> Anything like Kraft singles is a joke

Ridiculous dismissive statements like this aren't very helpful are they? If you want to be closed off, that's your prerogative. I'm certainly not going to be persuaded by such a comment devoid of substance, and I doubt you're going to change anyone else's mind with such a diminutive statement.

It's just circlejerk snobbery - which is pretty much just bullshit.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#250

Post by rfinney »

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #194
growlist wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then there are also plenty of small and small-ish economies that haven't done so well from EU (particularly Euro) membership, aren't there?

Nope. Ireland has done excellent-it was the poorest country in Europe when they joined in the 1970s, today it’s among the top. Eastern and south-eastern countries had lines for bread when the USSR dissolved. Ten years later, they joined the EU. Today, life in Poland or Hungary is close to catching up with Western Europe. Greece had about the same GDP per capita as Turkey when they joined. Today, it’s closer to 3x Tur…

Check.

"Ireland [...] was the poorest country in Europe"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_past_and_...

Check 1972 figures.

Spain and Greece were poorer. The unlisted Soviet client states were likely even much poorer.

"Poland or Hungary is close to catching up with Western Europe."

Poland and Hungary have 1/3 the per capita GDP as Britain. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28no... )

"Greece had about the same GDP per capita as Turkey when they joined. Today, it’s closer to 3x Turkey."

( see previous link). 2017: Greek per capita gdp =~ $18.6K, Turkey =~ $11.5K.

Also (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_past_and_... ). Greece joined in 1981: Greece gdp per capita ~= $5.3K, turkey gdp =~$2.2K.

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