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EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

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Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. The comment by blibble that you replied to was about a question of sovereignty, and both the summary of why the ERG don't like the proposed WA and the likely consequences of that seem reasonably accurate to me. You seem to have introduced first the GFA and then the IRA into the discussion, but without explaining why they were relevant to the ori…

Are you from the UK? The point is that between the UK and Ireland there is a CTA, common travel agreement. This means frictionless border crossing between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. This was straightforward when both were EU members as the border didn't need to be policed for transfer of goods. If the UK leaves the EU then goods from the UK cannot just be moved into the Republic of Ireland if there…

The point is that between the UK and Ireland there is a CTA, common travel agreement.

Yes there is, and it has existed since long before the EU or its predecessors existed.

This means frictionless border crossing between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

No, it means that citizens from either side are allowed to cross the border by default. Production of some basic ID documents may still be required. Checks may still be (and sometimes are) carried out. And the whole thing is based on essentially a long-standing gentleman's agreement and explicitly does not create binding legal obligations.

In short, the CTA does not require a completely frictionless border and never has. Indeed, that could not possibly be its effect, because its provisions only cover British and Irish citizens.

If the UK leaves the EU then goods from the UK cannot just be moved into the Republic of Ireland if there is no join customs agreement.

It's a lot more complicated than that, but yes, the existing provisions for moving goods across the border are governed by EU mechanisms, including the Customs Union and Single Market.

So now you have to introduce a hard border with the RoI which goes against the Good Friday Agreement.

And at this point I ask you much the same question that I have asked others in this discussion:

What specifically constitutes the "hard border" that is required, and in what specific way(s) do any associated processes or infrastructure contradict the GFA?

If you don't understand the relevance of the GFA then you should read up further on or and the Troubles that preceded it.

Please don't be patronising. It is both rude and unconstructive. The GFA is widely cited by advocates on one side of the Brexit debate as some form of barrier to some possible outcomes, yet it appears that many of those people haven't actually read it and think it says things that it doesn't. It is not unreasonable, when someone introduces it as a new factor in a discussion that was previously about matters of sovereignty, to seek clarification about why they think it is relevant and whether their arguments have any more substance than a lot of the other ones we see referring to the GFA.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#162
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't Britain de-industrialize of its own volition, in the 60s/70s/80s? :)

I've honestly only seen/owned at best a handful of products made in the UK. (I look at the country of origin of almost everything I buy, and I generally prefer EU-made things over Chinese-made things). Things that come to mind: - Lorlin switches, and there is (probably "used to be") a Möller plant in the UK. - A hammer made by Thorex. Good concept, poor quality. - A saw made by Thomas Flinn. Poor steel. - Fountain pe…

There's an industrial estate almost literally a stones throw from my window (here in the UK) that makes all kinds of things, especially Aero related.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#163
post #13

Is this a good thing in the end? Ecologically, hurting small economies (already happen in the eurozone)…

Yeah, I hear the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, and Estonia are hurting terribly.

But then there are also plenty of small and small-ish economies that haven't done so well from EU (particularly Euro) membership, aren't there?

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#164
post #155

This was news a few months, wonder why it's just now hitting HN. FYI, many import tariffs on products like cheese and meats are not immediately effectively - they gradually phase out the tariffs over a period of something like 8-10 years, so cheese will continue to be expensive for quite a while.

It just entered into force today, that's why it's in the news.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-785_en.htm

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#166
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Benefits of free-trade? You mean like a devastated blue collar class? Keep British products manufactured in Britain.

Didn't Britain de-industrialize of its own volition, in the 60s/70s/80s? :)

I met a plasterer that told me he'd had to change careers because Polish competition would work for so much less, so it's not as simple as that.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's the UK's obligation to preserve the Good Friday Agreement. The legal technicalities of that are debatable, but let's assume for this discussion that there exists a clear legal obligation to do so. Which specific obligation(s) under the GFA do you think would or would not be satisfied by which specific proposal(s) that have been made in relation to the NI/Ireland border?

I'm not a lawyer, so not 100% but Article 1 part iii: "and that it would be wrong to make any change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of a majority of its people;" A majority of NI didn't vote for Brexit, and a hard border would change the status of NI?

This is a selective quote and commonly misunderstood. Taken in context, the status in question is whether NI remains a part of the UK or becomes a part of a united Ireland.

The point of that provision was that across the entire island of Ireland there was a majority for a reunited Ireland, but within NI specifically there was not, so this was an explicit agreement that reuniting North and South would not happen without the consent of the people of Northern Ireland alone.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#168
post #155

This was news a few months, wonder why it's just now hitting HN. FYI, many import tariffs on products like cheese and meats are not immediately effectively - they gradually phase out the tariffs over a period of something like 8-10 years, so cheese will continue to be expensive for quite a while.

The contracts takes effect from today on. Months ago they just signed it, but it wasn't executed till now. Needs some time to prepare for such things.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you from the UK? The point is that between the UK and Ireland there is a CTA, common travel agreement. This means frictionless border crossing between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. This was straightforward when both were EU members as the border didn't need to be policed for transfer of goods. If the UK leaves the EU then goods from the UK cannot just be moved into the Republic of Ireland if there…

The point is that between the UK and Ireland there is a CTA, common travel agreement. Yes there is, and it has existed since long before the EU or its predecessors existed. This means frictionless border crossing between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. No, it means that citizens from either side are allowed to cross the border by default. Production of some basic ID documents may still be required. Chec…

The EU membership predates the GFA too. The GFA was able to be out in place in part thanks to the existence of both the CTA and the EU.

Do you think that if it worked the way you thought it did, there would be such a furore over the situation? I'm not saying UK MPs are the smartest bunch of people but if Brexit would leave the GFA untouched then surely they would have worked that out by now.

Perhaps you are wrong.

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