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Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

reuters.com

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Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#171

Post by lustysocietyorg »

FabHK wrote: post #133
lustysocietyorg wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We, the people, are pretty powerless here. Most US americans have been voting for Democrats or Republicans or not at all for decades. Of course the politics remain the same: Wars and politics that favor the richest. Please, vote for the Green Party or another reasonable party in 2020.

Maybe it's worth it to first reform the political system from a first-past-the-post system to more proportional representation (otherwise, unless I'm mistaken, those votes go pretty much straight to the wastepaper basket (or trash can, in this case)).

Clinton and Trump have both been elected by roughly 26% of eligible voters in 2016.

https://mises.org/wire/26-percent-eligible-voters-voted-trum...

If you do not vote or vote for someone you do not want, your vote is worse than lost.

There is much potential for other parties. And while the presidential election is most important regarding war and the rest of the world, other elections for local politicians are important too and maybe even more important for US citizens.

Related talk: How To Eliminate The "Spoiler" Vote Phenomenon w/Jill Stein pt. 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgYEFxjJaUg

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#172

Post by Retra »

dfxm12 wrote: post #142
josho wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve forgotten how to protest. I recall you guys getting pretty upset over some tea with Britain. Seriously as long as folks are content at home the politicians won’t give a damn about you. Go march in the streets en mass and things will slowly change.

If you think people haven't protested needless military action, you're paying as much attention to the American people as the politicians we've elected.

Strikes are far more effective than waving a sign on the street corner.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#173

Post by strictnein »

Yeah, Iran is just a simple country that doesn't deserve any of this... they treat everyone well, don't subjugate half their population along gender lines, aren't responsible for thousands of US and Iraqi causalities, and don't export terrorism across the region.

I know the "America is dumb" line works well on HN, but the naivety of some people here around foreign policy is just kind of staggering. Iran's "own destiny" isn't a positive one, so let's not romanticize it.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#174

Post by blibble »

louisswiss wrote: post #154
raxxorrax wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get the ridicule the argument about sovereignty is exposed to. Of course that is one of the most important discussion within the European Union. You can argue that external forces decrease the room for maneuvers for a single nation. Just as you can argue that member states have the tendency to fiercely guard sovereignty anyway and did so in the past. Nothing to say against that. But to say that sovereignty is…

Setting aside the fact that the UK has a veto over pretty much any important EU decision... > Of course that is one of the most important discussion within the European Union. Is it? Why? > Nothing to say against that. Why should the sovereignty of the UK be paramount? Why not the sovereignty of (for example) London, Cornwall or Scotland? The UK is a mix of geographically-close former countries, inhabited by people w…

> Setting aside the fact that the UK has a veto over pretty much any important EU decision...

this is not a fact at all, Lisbon removed the veto from nearly every area, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_E...

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#175

Post by spiritcat »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #159
spiritcat wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but half the world isn't actively trying to destroy most people/nations. And yes I do recognize it must suck ass to live in Gaza and I feel for them, and hope for a better future where their lives don't suck ass. I have no idea what to do about it though. I know it's inconvenient for Europeans and progressives who think they can just lift the blockade and stop operations in Syria and everyone will live happily e…

> half the world isn't actively trying to destroy most people/nations True, including Israel. You do realize that the occupation and abuse of Palestinians by Israel is what drives those Arabs that hate Israel, right? It's a rallying call, if you will. As for genocidal rhetoric, it's been done both by Israeli neighbors and Israel itself. As for military might, Israel is clearly on top. > I do recognize it must suck as…

> You do realize that the occupation and abuse of Palestinians by Israel is what drives those Arabs that hate Israel, right? It's a rallying call, if you will.

Naive. I'm sure they'll find another excuse to restore the Muslim lands. There is abuse and it's not pretty but just outright ending the occupation would basically be suicide.

> As for military might, Israel is clearly on top.

What's your point? It's ok if they shoot missiles at me because ours our bigger and fancier? I'm sure you would feel this way if there were missiles being launched at you with the hope of killing your family.

> As for Syria, is a sovereign country that you have no right to operate in, nor do you have the right to constantly violate Lebanese airspace.

This is where the 'get fucked' comes in.

> As for Palestinians, there's always the rhetoric that they will never become peaceful etc. but how about you stop thinking of 'Greater Israel' and stop building illegal settlements as a first step? You can't continue jacking their land and somehow come to an agreement with them.

Noted. Both sides are negotiating in bad faith so some degree here. There is no indication that Palestinians will ever consider one square inch of Israel to not be 'jacking their lands' any more than there is of settlers giving up hope for 'greater Israel.'

> As for Gaza, yes, lifting the blockade, at least for essential supplies, lifting fishing restrictions.

So they can use fishing boats to smuggle weapons and concrete for tunnels? Which IS what would happen. but still..

> Build some goodwill, allows Gazans to leave and study abroad, sponsor some targeted infrastructure projects...

Agreed. Certainly couldn't hurt in any significant way.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#176

Post by ovi256 »

benj111 wrote: post #56
ovi256 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do not mistake campaign arguments for facts. They're more of the "arguments as soldiers" variety. It's rational to only care how effective they are at influencing public oppinion, they're not peer reviewed publications.

Where do you stand morally? You may be right, but it's not right

It doesn't matter where one stands. If you want to fight against, say, the people that run campaigns, you'll have to fight in their chosen arena, that of public oppinion and elections. It's empirically found effective to use "arguments as soldiers" in that arena. If we chose policies through a peer-reviewed search for truth, we wouldn't have this discussion.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#177

Post by Retra »

lustysocietyorg wrote: post #128
dfxm12 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We see enough people profiting from these wars to wonder how much global conflict is manufactured. I hope we stop buying in. We, the people, are pretty powerless here. Lobbyists and elected officials have too much power and election cycles are too far apart. So even when recent American military action gets relatively low support from Americans [0], neither congress nor the president has any motivation to do anything…

> We, the people, are pretty powerless here. Most US americans have been voting for Democrats or Republicans or not at all for decades. Of course the politics remain the same: Wars and politics that favor the richest. Please, vote for the Green Party or another reasonable party in 2020.

Playing Jeopardy: "What would a paid Russian troll say?"

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#178

Post by InitialLastName »

Retra wrote: post #172
dfxm12 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think people haven't protested needless military action, you're paying as much attention to the American people as the politicians we've elected.

Strikes are far more effective than waving a sign on the street corner.

Strikes are really difficult when you've developed a culture of consumerism and permanent debt trapping big chunks of the population into wage slavery.

It's even harder when, at the same time, you put your thumb firmly on one side of the business/labor relations scale by pushing at-will employment and right to work efforts.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#179

Post by rusk »

morrbo wrote: post #74
rusk wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when your cheap stuff comes from China Yeah except neither party to this deal is producing "cheap stuff". Both consider themselves to be very much "top tier". > edit - to clarify, the point i'm trying to make is that it really doesn't cost much to ship stuff halfway around the world, especially en masse Yeah, if the stuff is "cheap". Like dramatically cheaper than what you can produce at home.

lol mate you're really not getting it. You said "the geography is a bit of an issue for physical goods". I'm saying, when you can order a sheep from new zealand, or a USB stick from China, and have it show up a few days or a week later, this isn't really a good argument.

"lol mate" what is this snapchat? , you're the one that's not getting it.

"The geography is a bit of an issue for physical goods" when you're not producing goods cheap enough to cover the cost of transit. The UK does not produce cheap goods. Quite the opposite.

I don't think racing to the bottom in living standards to compete productively with China is something that people voting for Brexit had in mind.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#180

Post by vegardx »

strictnein wrote: post #173

Yeah, Iran is just a simple country that doesn't deserve any of this... they treat everyone well, don't subjugate half their population along gender lines, aren't responsible for thousands of US and Iraqi causalities, and don't export terrorism across the region. I know the "America is dumb" line works well on HN, but the naivety of some people here around foreign policy is just kind of staggering. Iran's "own destin…

Unlike Saudi-Arabia?
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