Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran • Hacker News Board

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#161

Post by pluma » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 3:33 PM UTC

Qworg wrote: post #54

jonatanheyman wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and is now in a nuclear bomb program for the grace of god I have no love for Iran what so ever, but opposing them for having a nuclear program while not opposing the US or any other country who also has nukes, is so extremely hypocritical. I'm so astonished to see that argument over and over again.

It isn't hypocritical unless you see both types of government as equivalent - liberal democracy vs theological roughly democracy.

The POTUS can arbitrarily take military action as long as it can somehow be tied to 9/11 so in effect the type of government doesn't matter much when it comes to the military threat each country imposes.

Also, the US has a history of military intervention, suppression, assassinations and overthrowing democratically elected governments.

That the US is more "liberal" is about as reassuring as being told the potion that is being used to poison you is 100% organic and GMO-free.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#162

Post by zozbot123 » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 3:39 PM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #159

spiritcat wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but half the world isn't actively trying to destroy most people/nations. And yes I do recognize it must suck ass to live in Gaza and I feel for them, and hope for a better future where their lives don't suck ass. I have no idea what to do about it though. I know it's inconvenient for Europeans and progressives who think they can just lift the blockade and stop operations in Syria and everyone will live happily e…

> half the world isn't actively trying to destroy most people/nations True, including Israel. You do realize that the occupation and abuse of Palestinians by Israel is what drives those Arabs that hate Israel, right? It's a rallying call, if you will. As for genocidal rhetoric, it's been done both by Israeli neighbors and Israel itself. As for military might, Israel is clearly on top. > I do recognize it must suck as…

> You do realize that the occupation and abuse of Palestinians by Israel is what drives those Arabs that hate Israel, right? It's a rallying call, if you will.

You do realize that it's the other way around, in that "Palestinians" have always hated Israel (aided and abetted by Israel's Arab neighboring states) since it's lawful establishment by the UN? Palestinians are still failing to acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#163

Post by AsyncAwait » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 3:43 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #146

AsyncAwait wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, Iraq and Syria would be two countries. No, they wouldn't, Iran is in both countries with the explicit permission of the local governments, (like them or not). That's not what occupation means. > And if they could, they would be occupying many more. Given you first statement isn't true, I doubt this one is, beyond the cynical, "who wouldn't"? > Iran is not some entity trying to protect themselves from invaders…

"Their strategy of having some proxy forces in strategic places is part of their defence strategy, this has been studied." Iran's sponsorship of Hezbollah towards attacking Israel is part of their defence strategy? Iran's passing of Hadouthi missiles to targeted at cilivian areas in Saudia Arabia is part of their defence strategy . Yes 'this has been studied' and I'm afraid you're wrong. Iran is a antagonistic entity…

> Iran's sponsorship of Hezbollah towards attacking Israel is part of their defence strategy?

Iran's sponsorship of Hezbollah is absolutely part of their defense strategy, so is antagonism towards Israel, not that I agree with it, but it's worth noting that Israel has been regularly threatening to "bomb Lebanon back into the stone age" and attacking Iranians in Syria, so Israel is clearly an antagonizing force as well.

Also see my comment here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19045148 for the broader context.

> they want nukes so they can point them at Turkey, Saudi, Israel, Europe and further embolden themselves

There's no particular reason to think that if they wanted nukes, they'd do so for any other reason, than as a deterrent against an invasion, similarly to the reasons North Korea develops them.

> The only reason that trade is possibly going to happen - is because of the belief that they are not pursuing nuclear weapons.

It is not just a 'belief' as you call it, it has been verified regularly by the International Atomic Agency and Iran is in compliance with the deal. The U.S. is not.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#164

Post by pluma » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 3:43 PM UTC

louisswiss wrote: post #100

makomk wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's one thing about Brexit that Britain can agree on, it's that the deal that's being offered by the EU is awful. It lead to the largest House of Commons defeat for a key government bill in history, and it polls terribly with pretty much everyone. That's why the EU (and most of the British press) have been using the fact that May managed to trade some bad parts of their proposal with differently bad replacemen…

A helpful reminder that Britain leaving the EU and Britain getting a 'deal' with the EU are two separate (but related) events. Britain triggered Article 50 and decided to leave the EU. There's no deal necessary. From the EU's point of view (and a legal one), this isn't a negotiation, just a (sometimes less clearly defined) bureaucratic procedure. There is of course the question of what Britain's relationship to the E…

Really it seems like Ireland and Spain are the most interested parties when it comes to negotiating with post-EU Britain. And if you look at UK land borders it should be obvious why that is.

This is what's most frustrating about Brexiters complaining about the "unreasonable" offer by the EU. It's not "the EU" imposing those terms, it's the interested parties.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#165

Post by cannabis_sam » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 3:45 PM UTC

m0skit0 wrote: post #158

ddalex wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, what? This deal is entirely designed to cut US out the loop of international payments, one step at a time. It is extremely valuable to EU to able to conduct oil payments with Iran directly in Euro, without the US being able to say no.

Did you read the article? "The European trade vehicle was conceived as a way to help match Iranian oil and gas exports against purchases of EU goods. However, those ambitions have been toned down, with diplomats saying that, realistically, it will be used only for smaller trade, for example of humanitarian products or food." So effectively the EU-Iran trade deal is just a diplomatic move rather than a real trade deal…

Still, it’s a diplomatic move that would have been inconceivable (IMHO) under Obama or Bush..

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#166

Post by parthdesai » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 3:45 PM UTC

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #135

lustysocietyorg wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We, the people, are pretty powerless here. Most US americans have been voting for Democrats or Republicans or not at all for decades. Of course the politics remain the same: Wars and politics that favor the richest. Please, vote for the Green Party or another reasonable party in 2020.

The green party has terrible candidates and often I disagree with their policies. I'm not going to vote for someone just because they're different from the establishment if they have positions I find ridiculous.

And you agree with policies of other two parties?

Let take 2016 elections for example, your choices were; Hillary, responsible for a failed country right now and rigged primaries or Trump, the less said about him is better. If enough people voted for a different party, that would keep these two main parties in sort of a check as well, knowing they can't get away with whatever they want.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#167

Post by wonthegame » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 3:46 PM UTC

sitkack wrote: post #139

paulddraper wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

??? Your link says in 2013 the U.S. was near its neighbor Canada on per capita carbon emissions. That's still double the EU. But that's also 6 years ago; the gap will have closed somewhat.

And Canada reflects the emission levels of rich Americans. Canada is no roll model on carbon emission.

Yeah but look at our totals. It’s very low. Per capita it is bad. We are wasteful and an oil producing country but our population is spread out and we have a colder climate. Check out the breakdown and you’ll see transportation is the offender.

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#168

Post by wonthegame » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 3:52 PM UTC

mont wrote: post #124

josho wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve forgotten how to protest. I recall you guys getting pretty upset over some tea with Britain. Seriously as long as folks are content at home the politicians won’t give a damn about you. Go march in the streets en mass and things will slowly change.

Are you implying that putting some filter over my facebook picture isn't an effective method of protest?

You raised awareness. (Slightly sarcasm)

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#169

Post by AsyncAwait » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 3:55 PM UTC

bogomipz wrote: post #160

AsyncAwait wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be propagandized out of your mind. The current Iranian regime is there BECAUSE of Western meddling, it would not exist otherwise. You also need to realize that the Gulf states sponsor terrorism to a larger degree and are our allies, so it's not about that. The U.S. supports 75% of the world's dictatorships. It simply wants control of Iran's natural resources, same goes for Venezuela, where the opposition…

For someone accusing others of being "propagandized out of your mind" you seem rather uninformed. >"The current Iranian regime is there BECAUSE of Western meddling, it would not exist otherwise." The original Iranian Revolution was a reaction to Western meddling and policies. The current regime is there because of the consolidation of power of the theocracy. The executive branch is actually subordinate to the Supreme…

> The original Iranian Revolution was a reaction to Western meddling and policies. The current regime is there because...

The current regime is there precisely as a result of the Iranian Revolution.

> Please provide a single citation for this statistic. This is an absurd statement.

http://global-politics.eu/military-assistance-73-percent-wor...

I guess I was off by 2%, it's 73% of the world's dictatorships.

> The US doesn't need Iran's oil, neither does it need Venezuela's. The US has been a net exporter of oil for a while now. The US shale boom has been in effect for years.

It doesn't need the oil itself. But it does need for global oil to be traded in USD in order to help maintain its status as a reserve currency, which is why it still supports the Saudis.

There's also U.S. oil companies who rely on the Venezuelan crude and would like to go back into the country and privatize the oil assets[1].

1 - https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1088414772163461120

Re: Skirting U.S. sanctions, Europeans launch trade mechanism for Iran

#170

Post by nradov » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 3:55 PM UTC

dfxm12 wrote: post #112

nkozyra wrote: post #5

Good. I don't know how much longer Americans are going to buy the boogiemen we keep getting fed. Sovereign nations under the the U.S.' thumb, not being able to control their own destiny only works so long as we're complacent. I sense we're growing tired of war for war's sake, leery of ideological battles built for future blowback down the road. We see enough people profiting from these wars to wonder how much global…

We see enough people profiting from these wars to wonder how much global conflict is manufactured. I hope we stop buying in. We, the people, are pretty powerless here. Lobbyists and elected officials have too much power and election cycles are too far apart. So even when recent American military action gets relatively low support from Americans [0], neither congress nor the president has any motivation to do anything…

Don't blame the election cycle. All military funding has to be passed by Congress and the House of Representatives election cycle is only 2 years.