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Why some Japanese pensioners want to go to jail

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Why some Japanese pensioners want to go to jail

#71

Post by beaconstudios »

pluma wrote: post #63
beaconstudios wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this seems more humanitarian, but doesn't it reduce the disincentive to commit another crime, especially for people from unstable or low-income backgrounds where the prison may be more pleasant than home? Most prisons around the world seem to be far too inhumane but I can't help but wonder if you can go too far in the other direction.

Please watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYj_FPT90cM (it's about Norway, which has very humanitarian prisons) The short version is that a naive comparison shows that recidivism in Norway is much lower than in the US, a more thorough comparison shows that recidivism is actually not so different. But either way, making prisons worse doesn't actually help fighting crime . So the decision whether prisoner…

I think you may have missed my point. What I'm saying is, between a horrible prison and the Ritz, what's the optimum point so as to treat prisoners as humanely as possible without becoming an actively inviting environment? It's only logical to balance the moral responsibility to preserve human dignity with the risk of creating perverse incentives.

Re: Why some Japanese pensioners want to go to jail

#72

Post by konschubert »

ekianjo wrote: post #64
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like the article caters for it well enough. In relative proportion it's increasing: "In 1997 this age group accounted for about one in 20 convictions but 20 years later the figure had grown to more than one in five - a rate that far outstrips the growth of the over-65s as a proportion of the population"

You missed the next sentence: > nd like Toshio, many of these elderly lawbreakers are repeat offenders. Of the 2,500 over-65s convicted in 2016, more than a third had more than five previous convictions. Those are not unique offenders. Somebody who commits multiple infractions is counted several times.

Yes, but this is an uncorrelated effect.

Re: Why some Japanese pensioners want to go to jail

#74

Post by blue4 »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #16
whitepoplar wrote: post #7

My parents are set to turn 70 next year and I worry so much about their wellbeing when they get older. My dad, in particular, is a generally happy person, but doesn't have many friends. I worry that if my mom passes before him, he's going to have a rough time. I feel guilty because I'm one of those children described in the article who moved to another city to chase economic + social activity.

We've all done it, and often had to, which is the root of the problem. When I was under 10, both sets of grandparents and four of five aunts and uncles were within 10 miles, most under 3. Now we're all over the place and a visit isn't a regular frequent thing but a major, rarer, trip. As I'm in my mid fifties some of the future looks rather bleak. Add longer life expectancy after retirement and for most, better menta…

https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/101-minka

This podcast episode is all about getting rid of nursing homes and it sort of talks about the way it should be. Communal, and a split of ages.

Re: Why some Japanese pensioners want to go to jail

#75

Post by pluma »

beaconstudios wrote: post #71
pluma wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYj_FPT90cM (it's about Norway, which has very humanitarian prisons) The short version is that a naive comparison shows that recidivism in Norway is much lower than in the US, a more thorough comparison shows that recidivism is actually not so different. But either way, making prisons worse doesn't actually help fighting crime . So the decision whether prisoner…

I think you may have missed my point. What I'm saying is, between a horrible prison and the Ritz, what's the optimum point so as to treat prisoners as humanely as possible without becoming an actively inviting environment? It's only logical to balance the moral responsibility to preserve human dignity with the risk of creating perverse incentives.

> It's only logical to balance the moral responsibility to preserve human dignity

I don't know, the American prison system doesn't seem to consider that a high importance. The problem in Japan seems to be that the not-even-actually-nice prison system still trumps the conditions under which those pensioners apparently live.

If your prison system is not a complete nightmare and people seem to be intentionally getting themselves imprisoned the right solution isn't to make the prisons worse, it's to fix the social problems that are making people prefer going to prison (i.e. in this case: loneliness, societal neglect, poverty and shame).

Re: Why some Japanese pensioners want to go to jail

#76

Post by jshprentz »

The 1904 O. Henry short story "The Cop and the Anthem"[1][2] tells of a homeless New York City man who commits small crimes, preferring arest and jail to charity handouts.

"But to one of Soapy's proud spirit the gifts of charity are encumbered. If not in coin you must pay in humiliation of spirit for every benefit received at the hands of philanthropy. As Caesar had his Brutus, every bed of charity must have its toll of a bath, every loaf of bread its compensation of a private and personal inquisition. Wherefore it is better to be a guest of the law, which though conducted by rules, does not meddle unduly with a gentleman's private affairs."

Soapy's many attempts fail, but the story ends with a typical O. Henry twist. No spoiler here.

The story was filmed in 1952, one of five stories in "O. Henry's Full House." Charles Laughton played the vagrant. He briefly meets Marilyn Monroe. Watch this segment on YouTube[3] or enjoy the entire film.

[1] https://americanliterature.com/author/o-henry/short-story/th...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cop_and_the_Anthem

[3] https://youtu.be/temSJCZwUlU

Re: Why some Japanese pensioners want to go to jail

#77

Post by beaconstudios »

pluma wrote: post #75
beaconstudios wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you may have missed my point. What I'm saying is, between a horrible prison and the Ritz, what's the optimum point so as to treat prisoners as humanely as possible without becoming an actively inviting environment? It's only logical to balance the moral responsibility to preserve human dignity with the risk of creating perverse incentives.

> It's only logical to balance the moral responsibility to preserve human dignity I don't know, the American prison system doesn't seem to consider that a high importance. The problem in Japan seems to be that the not-even-actually-nice prison system still trumps the conditions under which those pensioners apparently live. If your prison system is not a complete nightmare and people seem to be intentionally getting t…

> I don't know, the American prison system doesn't seem to consider that a high importance.

I'm not here to defend the American prison system - I'm talking more generally.

> f your prison system is not a complete nightmare and people seem to be intentionally getting themselves imprisoned the right solution isn't to make the prisons worse, it's to fix the social problems that are making people prefer going to prison (i.e. in this case: loneliness, societal neglect, poverty and shame).

Obviously that's the ideal, but it's literally impossible. How is the government (or whichever organisation) going to solve all its citizens' personal problems? If we lived in a world where all people's personal problems were taken care of, prisons would be barely needed.

Re: Why some Japanese pensioners want to go to jail

#78

Post by justtopost »

tokyodude wrote: post #68
whitepoplar wrote: post #7

My parents are set to turn 70 next year and I worry so much about their wellbeing when they get older. My dad, in particular, is a generally happy person, but doesn't have many friends. I worry that if my mom passes before him, he's going to have a rough time. I feel guilty because I'm one of those children described in the article who moved to another city to chase economic + social activity.

Total non sequitur but I think there is an opportunity for old folks homes with organized lan/online gaming. Probably still 15-30 years out until games start entering retirement communities in droves but maybe with the right promotion it could get started earlier?

You already see this in many online games. There are over 60 only clans on steam when I looked years ago. Its a great way to 'socialize' when you arent very mobile.

Re: Why some Japanese pensioners want to go to jail

#79

Post by Phenix88be »

beaconstudios wrote: post #77
pluma wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's only logical to balance the moral responsibility to preserve human dignity I don't know, the American prison system doesn't seem to consider that a high importance. The problem in Japan seems to be that the not-even-actually-nice prison system still trumps the conditions under which those pensioners apparently live. If your prison system is not a complete nightmare and people seem to be intentionally getting t…

> I don't know, the American prison system doesn't seem to consider that a high importance. I'm not here to defend the American prison system - I'm talking more generally. > f your prison system is not a complete nightmare and people seem to be intentionally getting themselves imprisoned the right solution isn't to make the prisons worse, it's to fix the social problems that are making people prefer going to prison (…

> How is the government (or whichever organisation) going to solve all its citizens' personal problems?

Money ?

Re: Why some Japanese pensioners want to go to jail

#80

Post by Tsubasachan »

sridca wrote: post #73
Tsubasachan wrote: post #45

Assisted suicide is a big trend in my country for old people who want to check out. But I know that in many countries that's not an option due to religious beliefs.

What is your country?

Netherlands. People actually feel safe when they have a contract that allows them to be terminated when they get Alzheimer's for example.

People want to live but on their own terms. Not spending 20 years in diapers tied to a bed or all alone wasting away with only a robot to talk to.

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