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64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

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Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#231

Post by kamaal »

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #226
Justsignedup wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good project management is invisible. They just make projects happen. They make sure everyone is talking. They make sure decisions are made. Everyone knows what to do when to do it. Etc. I seen good project management. It is magical. Then the manager left. Everything slowed down to a crawl.

Invisible makes it sound intangible. If you can't quantify the value you're adding to an organization, are you adding any at all? Making sure "the right people are talking", "decisions are made", etc. do sound like things that can be tracked to confirm if a PM is indeed adding value.

>>If you can't quantify the value you're adding to an organization, are you adding any at all?

At some point in time recurring wins can look like a perpetual machine. The problem is when you get there, people think like, Now that we got what we want why do we need this person?

It's only after the person goes and a few months down the lane you begin to see things falling apart. Of course by then things just become the new normal.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#232

Post by dbg31415 »

I'm pushing 40 and I can already feel a gap between myself and the 20-somethings. I don't get all of their jokes, I don't know the popular bars or bands, and I don't like doing anything that involves thumb-typing. I think a lot of employment is just done by "smell" -- does this person smell like one of "us" or is he an outsider. And I know that at my age, I'm already starting to stink.

So not to pick on the author too much, but he makes the claim, "Actually, I am very much with it. Every year, I read the equivalent of a university semester's worth of books and attend seminars to keep up with the industry and its latest trends." If I were him there are some things I would do to freshen up.

1) I'd consider going with a modern template for my company site. He has his own company that he runs consulting projects through, but it looks very dated. Simple WordPress instance with a generic theme would be better. Seems like he'd have the skillset required to set that up.

* Avidaid · Project Management · Web Development & Software Design · IT Education || http://www.avidaid.ca/index.php

2) I'd prune content off my LinkedIn and resume. He mentioned 20 years, I don't think there's any reason for anyone to list more than 10 years of work history.

* David Wimsett | LinkedIn || https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwimsett/

3) I'd try and re-write the content for a specific job. I wouldn't go broad, I'd go targeted. He seems keen on being a PM, so I'd limit all work to just PM work. Tell a story, make it a good one. If there's a boring part, or part that isn't relevant to your next job, just leave it out. It's OK to have gaps.

Change this:

> My background is wide and varied. Most of my career has been spent in IT as a developer, business analyst and project manager for different industries. But, I have practiced professionally in many areas to include photography, film making, journalism, blogger, columnist, graphic design, educator, consultant and security expert to name a few. I am also a published author of short stories and novels. This expansive set of experiences gives me a wealth of knowledge to cross reference and draw upon when I solve problems.

To something like:

> Experienced cross-functional team lead with experience managing web, IT, government, and aerospace engineering projects.

I'd also cut lines that are dated. Things that may have been hard in the past, but are no longer relevant. Including a few here:

> Installed a Novel network with word processing, spreadsheet and record keeping capability.

I'd cut all references to projects that didn't look modern. Again, OK to have gaps.

* Look FANTASTIC on social media with professional video movies || http://www.yourstory2video.com/

4) Seems odd that a senior PM would have under 200 contacts on LinkedIn. I get that maybe it wasn't his focus, but I probably add 200 contacts a year... MeetUps, mentoring, new hires, and clients... it only seems hard to put yourself out there, until you do it. LinkedIn and GitHub are the only social networks I use. Networking is always going to be the best way for anyone to find a new job, having a large network helps.

5) Lastly, I feel like age discrimination is real, and rejection sucks, but it's hard to get a sense of confidence from this guy after reading his post. Can someone from Netflix get this guy on the new Queer Eye? Not having confidence is going to really hurt him when it comes to applying for jobs. I don't know how to fix this, but likely seeing a shrink and hitting up the gym a bit would boost his self-esteem. I don't know, I've never been 64, but feel like that's probably good advice for anyone.

Hey, David... if you're reading this, I reached out on LinkedIn. I run the delivery team for a branch of a global agency. I interview a lot of PM candidates. Happy to set up a mock interview and give feedback. Cheers!

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#233

Post by krageon »

ericb wrote: post #183
snotrockets wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't be, because different groups answer questions differently. One famous result ( http://web.pdx.edu/~mev/pdf/PS471_Readings_2012/Lizotte_Sidm... ) is that woman hold themselves to a higher threshold of certainty before claiming to know something. An interesting solution would be to score differently based on known biases; but that would be a can of worms in itself. Meritocracy is a lie used by the privileged.…

> Meritocracy is a lie used by the privileged. I don't understand this point of view. It sounds like, by calling it a lie, your real complaint is the ways attempts at meritocracy have fallen short of being an actual meritocracy. That being the case, isn't meritocracy still the correct ideal that we should be doing a better job of striving for? If this is not how you feel, what is the word for the appropriate assignme…

This argument for meritocracy is what a real communist will tell you about communism now. It works basically for anything that we don't have good working examples for right this second. Given that there are no good working examples and/or haven't been any so far, how would we fix the problems that we have seen and can foresee?

Given those concerns, I think it is not reasonable to just say "we need to try again and try harder" because it does a disservice to those times it was tried in the past. Maybe there is a fundamental problem there that still has to be solved?

For a meritocracy, this isn't super complicated. Who decides what has merit? How will you measure this? Are the things that you measure the right things? Given that there is a possibility for side-channel information (for example, certain groups of people having terms they "look for" and that you only know about being part of this group), how will we solve this?

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#234

Post by danieltillett »

krageon wrote: post #233
ericb wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meritocracy is a lie used by the privileged. I don't understand this point of view. It sounds like, by calling it a lie, your real complaint is the ways attempts at meritocracy have fallen short of being an actual meritocracy. That being the case, isn't meritocracy still the correct ideal that we should be doing a better job of striving for? If this is not how you feel, what is the word for the appropriate assignme…

This argument for meritocracy is what a real communist will tell you about communism now. It works basically for anything that we don't have good working examples for right this second. Given that there are no good working examples and/or haven't been any so far, how would we fix the problems that we have seen and can foresee? Given those concerns, I think it is not reasonable to just say "we need to try again and tr…

I feel like misquoting Churchill here and saying meritocracy is the the worst system except for all the alternatives.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#235

Post by AstralStorm »

ValleyOfTheMtns wrote: post #190
Gibbon1 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meritocracy is a lie used by the privileged. There is no such thing in the real world. I remember an essay by a black female engineer. She said what helped her were three things, her dad had a union job, disability payments from the uncle who came home from Korea with no legs. These meant they could fake a middle class lifestyle. And her mother teaching her how to dress and talk like a white person. Seriously a lot…

Seems like that's conflating actual meritocracy with an exploited/fake form of meritocracy. Actual meritocracies are rare, but that doesn't mean we should redefine "meritocracy" to be the the distorted (and more common) version of it.

Please provide an example of an actual meritocracy so we can educate you that it does not exist.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#236

Post by AstralStorm »

WalterBright wrote: post #222
Novashi wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The government is desperate for people who can code. Not desperate enough to teach people to code who want to learn though. But I bet half the need is from mountains of shit code anyway. The contracting and procurement processes are fucked (source: friend who works in gov't IT contracts -- stay far away from any dev positions involving Dept. of VA). Demand for good devs is going to be won by companies. We clearly ca…

> Not desperate enough to teach people to code who want to learn though. There's endless free material online for those who actually want to learn.

Those people end up in companies if they're any good at it, presuming they can somehow pass the filtering.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#237

Post by chrisbennet »

scarface74 wrote: post #161
chrisbennet wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and I suppose sexual descrimination isn’t a problem in your world either (if you’re a man) but you know what - you aren’t everyone or even most 50 years olds. I’m 0x39 and I don’t even look for work, it just finds me. My wife also has 30+ experience and a masters in CS. Her last job was something like 3 years ago hacking/attacking Linux for Darpa for gods sake. She’s a sharp girl just not an outgoing one. No pro…

Hacking Linux is a specialized skill that isn’t your average everyday job that you can just walk out into the street and get like your bog standard enterprise developer for yet another software as a service CRUD app. Honestly, the broad market doesn’t care about a masters in CS. Of course it’s going to be harder to find a job with a highly specialized skill. Why does it necessarily have to be ageism and not just that…

Previous to the DARPA job, she was doing enterprise development for places like Fidelity - very normal Java, JavaScript, database stuff for decades at multiple companies.

I am not attacking you specifically, but there are things you just don’t know or won’t believe if they haven’t happened to you. Heck, I would have been oblivious to this sort of thing (and sexual discrimination) if it wasn’t for my wife.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#238

Post by scarface74 »

aiyodev wrote: post #227
scarface74 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know where you are. But with that skillset, recruiters should be throwing jobs at you in most major American cities. I know for a fact that recruiters in Atlanta would be salivating at the chance to placd you. As I said before, I am in my mid 40s.

“He has all those skills but doesn’t have a job? Must be something wrong with him. I know several people his age and they all have jobs.”

It could be the places he’s applying, he’s could be blindly submitting resumes, it could be anything. But out of all the things it could be, we don’t know if it’s about age.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#239

Post by scarface74 »

kamaal wrote: post #221
scarface74 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How will they tell the difference between if I am 45 and 50 before they make an offer? I haven’t put my date of college graduation on my resume since I was 35 and now I only put the last ten years worth of work experience. Let’s say I’m back in the job market when I am 50 in 2024 and I just keep my experience from 2008 or 2012 depending on the company I am interviewing for.

>>How will they tell the difference between if I am 45 and 50 before they make an offer? They have eyes, and age shows. Wrinkles, greying hair etc. Its not that hard to spot old people.

I’m not saying that it is hard to spot old people but the difference between 45 and 50 isn’t that great.

It wouldn’t have mattered either in my last two jobs or my current one since my managers were all older than I am. But, I don’t take any chances. I go to all my interviews clean shaven - bald head, and no facial hair specifically because of the ageism boogeyman. No one thinks twice about a Black guy with a bald head.

No I’m not saying that’s the answer for anyone else.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#240

Post by masonic »

zmmmmm wrote: post #88
098328 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you only hire young people or would you hire older PhDs?

So far we hired 2 younger and one older. However the older person did have some issues (not completely relevant to this discussion but perhaps indirectly so - he had some family obligations that became extremely burdensome) that resulted in him leaving. It sort of illustrates that part of the whole complexity of the situation is that older people can have complex lives and that has a business cost. So part of the dis…

  older people can have complex lives
"Family obligations" affect young adults in their childbearing years more than 40+ with kids out and on their own way, generally.
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