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U.S. Accuses Huawei of Stealing Trade Secrets, Defrauding Banks

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Re: U.S. Accuses Huawei of Stealing Trade Secrets, Defrauding Banks

#161

Post by chillacy »

rsj_hn wrote: post #148
mikejb wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing was a movie, the other actually happens. Fair point on the comparison, but industrial espionage isn't a one-way street.

So which Soviet industrial secrets did the U.S. steal? Which Chinese industrial secrets did the U.S. steal? It certainly appears to be a one way street.

The US definitely stole its share of British industrial secrets during the Industrial Revolution and German technology post-WW2, back when the US was behind. The US doesn't need to steal Chinese secrets, we're already ahead.

Re: U.S. Accuses Huawei of Stealing Trade Secrets, Defrauding Banks

#162

Post by mikejb »

rsj_hn wrote: post #148
mikejb wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing was a movie, the other actually happens. Fair point on the comparison, but industrial espionage isn't a one-way street.

So which Soviet industrial secrets did the U.S. steal? Which Chinese industrial secrets did the U.S. steal? It certainly appears to be a one way street.

You should look up the Snowden leaks, and the NSA's activity in the corporate espionage world.

Re: U.S. Accuses Huawei of Stealing Trade Secrets, Defrauding Banks

#163

Post by chillacy »

roenxi wrote: post #159
richardw wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not an American but I'm not convinced America is in the wrong here. It's reasonable to complain and act when someone is cherry-picking rules. US companies can't compete on price but can on research. When that is stolen, you fight back with whatever you have available to you. Complaints to WTO, economic force, arrests (where warranted). I also understand the Chinese perspective. People and countries have stolen tech f…

The issue isn't really who is in the wrong, the issue is that China and America have different standards for determining what wrong means both formally and informally. It is one thing to impose American standards on places like Pakistan with the Osama assassination, since they can't really fight back in a meaningful way. It is a big deal to assert something like that against China, who is effectively a military and e…

I'll pile on and mention that right and wrong are poorly suited for geopolitical analysis in general, it's generally understood that relationships are shaped by power and strategic alliances over principles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism_(international_relatio...

Re: U.S. Accuses Huawei of Stealing Trade Secrets, Defrauding Banks

#164

Post by baroffoos »

jmh530 wrote: post #132
roenxi wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What would incentive a company to invest millions in new technology, like a new cancer drug, if they have to give up their secrets as soon as they do? No one would bother inventing any at all. Well, the incentives around research are a bit weird. I'm usually all-in on free market capitalism, but I have to admit that historically government sponsorship has a pretty great track record for research. For your specific…

Nuclear weapons are a good example of IP theft though. Russia stole plans from the US for nuclear weapons to get ahead. The US literally executed people for their role in it.

Which was also a good thing. Now every country has them, no one will use them because there is no longer any power imbalance.

Re: U.S. Accuses Huawei of Stealing Trade Secrets, Defrauding Banks

#165

Post by chillacy »

make3 wrote: post #105
product50 wrote: post #100

To commenters in this thread explaining that this is unfair (since almost all countries including US did it at some point of time), the main issue is that USA is powerful enough to do something about it. They can rally up support from their allies and keep Chinese companies from gaining any international adoption. Look at how they got Meng from Huawei arrested - it was almost unreal. This is how the world works today…

the quantity matters, and it's very clear that China did it a lot more. Also, Meng got arrested because we are in a state of law and she broke the law, not because some despot chose to

> we are in a state of law

Laws are selectively applied all the time, juries can nullify written laws, prosecutors can make plea deals, cities can choose to not enforce federal laws, and a whole bunch of anti-terrorism laws can be used to hold people in quasi-legal detention centers. What the heck is a state of law?

Re: U.S. Accuses Huawei of Stealing Trade Secrets, Defrauding Banks

#166

Post by dgzl »

In a Data Structures class a few years ago, during a review for our upcoming exam, the professor had to abruptly leave the room... I forget why. While they were gone, a Chinese student runs up to the podium and grabs the papers the professor was reading from and takes it back to their large friend group. When the professor returned, they didn't have their notes (I think it was a previous year exam). Feeling uncomfortable, the professor was unable to get the thief to confess, and class was over.

About one day before the exam, a friend of mine said he was offered the texts and it had circulated to pretty much anyone who wanted it.

Re: U.S. Accuses Huawei of Stealing Trade Secrets, Defrauding Banks

#167

Post by chillacy »

yumraj wrote: post #101
vkou wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? China is ~200 years late in industrializing, mostly because of centuries of colonial plunder (And a few decades of communist misrule). There's a very simple formula for getting your country caught up to the rest of the world. Steal as much as you can, until you pull yourself up to the level of your neighbours. Every developed nation has either done this, or piggy-backed off a bigger neighbour who has. Just b…

> And it works, too. Look at the quality of life in China, compared to India... Or Vietnam. Can't say for Vietnam as I don't know much, but quality of life in India is much much better than quality of life in China. People in India have access to full Internet, have access to real Democracy, have freedom of speech, live free life, aren't afraid to speak their mind, minorities are not being thrown in concentration cam…

> most people will take a free-er life than a gilded prison

Maslow's hierarchy applies here. I won't start worrying about freedom of speech till I have food and stability. The fact that so many non-democratic countries transition to becoming democracies only after reaching some level of economic development (see Taiwan, South Korea) would imply that this is a trend in the world.

Re: U.S. Accuses Huawei of Stealing Trade Secrets, Defrauding Banks

#168

Post by ezVoodoo »

educationdata wrote: post #23

In China, stealing trade secrets is called “打破技术封锁” (breaking the technical blockade). The U.S. does not even need to collect evidence through investigation. Just by reading Chinese news reports and textbooks, you will find there are lots of Chinese nationalist stories about their hero technician / scientists steal western technologies. They are literally proud of it. I heard from my Chinese friends who work in the U…

As one who speaks Chinese, I find what you said is a blatant lie.

In deed, “打破技术封锁” means to break the technical blockade, but by means of independent innovation, not stealing "trade secrets". Given China has the biggest force of engineers and scientists in the world, it is not so hard to understand.

Fact check, Huawei is the only full 5G solution provider in the world; whereas no such company can be found in the US.

So when you or your friends think the US has much to be stolen by China, think twice.

Re: U.S. Accuses Huawei of Stealing Trade Secrets, Defrauding Banks

#169

Post by chillacy »

bigger_cheese wrote: post #102
nosequel wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China stole trade secrets and technology from US Steel and Alcor (aluminum) that allowed them to catch up in technology at an unreasonable pace. This is just one huge example. They don't innovate, they steal and then copy, undercutting others' costs. The US metal producing industry has taken a huge hit and they were the ones to put the R&D money into the production technology.

Do you have more info about this? I work in Steel and I admit I don't have a large high level picture of things, my understanding/perception is the tech innovation in recent decades have come largely from JKT (Japan, Korea, Taiwan) region those countries have the modern plants that are technologically interesting, my understanding is US plants are mostly older previous generation technology so I find it dubious that…

Not the parent, but I recall that Deng Xiaoping basically kicked off China's steel industry by buying a modern steel plant from Japan for a not insignificant portion of China's total GDP at the time. It was a risky investment which paid off.

Re: U.S. Accuses Huawei of Stealing Trade Secrets, Defrauding Banks

#170

Post by ahelwer »

dgzl wrote: post #166

In a Data Structures class a few years ago, during a review for our upcoming exam, the professor had to abruptly leave the room... I forget why. While they were gone, a Chinese student runs up to the podium and grabs the papers the professor was reading from and takes it back to their large friend group. When the professor returned, they didn't have their notes (I think it was a previous year exam). Feeling uncomfort…

What the fuck is the relevance of this story? We're just sharing tales of Chinese people misbehaving now? People in here need to do some serious soul-searching about their attitude toward 1.3 billion people. The transparent racism that pops up on every thread about China stealing trade secrets is embarrassing.
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