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64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

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Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#191
post #88
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you only hire young people or would you hire older PhDs?

So far we hired 2 younger and one older. However the older person did have some issues (not completely relevant to this discussion but perhaps indirectly so - he had some family obligations that became extremely burdensome) that resulted in him leaving. It sort of illustrates that part of the whole complexity of the situation is that older people can have complex lives and that has a business cost. So part of the dis…

Glad to hear that, as a "mature" PhD

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#192
Disclaimer: I don't approve ageism in tech, I'm merely trying to explain the reasoning of the other side of the negotiation table.

The unspoken truth about the job market is that the older you get, the more you should rely on your network when finding jobs. Simply maintain professional contact with 5-20 people that worked with you, know that you can deliver and would recommend you (citing the projects you successfully completed together), hire you directly, or at least give you a gig. Yes, it's a completely orthogonal skill to doing the actual job, but this is something that successful hires do.

So if a 65-year-old person files a cold-call application for a management position (that involves building professional relationships with your colleagues in order to make things succeed), it is very reasonable to ask what happened to their network and why nobody from the network would not have recommended them.

The article actually gives a hint when it mentions selling the assets and accumulating credit card debts. I'm sorry to say that, but this is an evidence of poor resource management. A good resource management strategy in this case would be:

1. Damn, I've lost my job. OK, I have X months on runway. Let's try to find another management position.

2. Oops, my runway is at 80% with no offers. I get 10% conversion ratio from applications to interviews and 0% from interviews to offers. Let's cut down expenses and try experimenting with what I do on the interviews.

3. Crap, runway is at 60%, still no offer. Let's kick down and try to find a dev position.

4. Runway is at 40%, no offer as a dev, still 100% cutoff after the interview. Let's try to apply for a remote position.

5. Runway is at 20%. Get a freakin' trade that people can realistically do in my age, secure recurring income, try to step up and find a remote dev job.

Nothing personal, but if you cannot manage that, you will likely not succeed at managing a multi-million dollar software project either.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#193

I'm only in my 50s, but this is very relateable. Did a couple dozen interviews a year or two ago before finally getting a bite. Somewhat amazingly, even passed the hiring committee at a FANG, only to get swatted down by a rare strike from the executive level. In one interview, was asked to produce a class that could serialize and deserialize a list of numbers, to/from a string of chars. Sure, it's not that hard. Took…

One of FANGs I interviewed at, I couldn’t help noticing they totally avoid asking practical questions that require field experience to understand and instead just focus the entire interview on CompSci college homework problems that recent grads can easily relate to. I wonder why. Hmmmmm ...

To be fair, recent grads also have an enormous amount of trouble breaking into the industry. The prisoner's dilemma of training up the graduate at a negative return for 2 years before watching them get poached is an issue that's been thoroughly canvassed around here. I think it's beneficial to the health of the industry that tech giants are at least somewhat willing to calibrate their hiring processes towards that class of applicant and take on that risk, and I hope they don't move away from that just to even further pad the career prospects of people with 5-10 years' experience.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and I suppose sexual descrimination isn’t a problem in your world either (if you’re a man) but you know what - you aren’t everyone or even most 50 years olds. I’m 0x39 and I don’t even look for work, it just finds me. My wife also has 30+ experience and a masters in CS. Her last job was something like 3 years ago hacking/attacking Linux for Darpa for gods sake. She’s a sharp girl just not an outgoing one. No pro…

Hacking Linux is a specialized skill that isn’t your average everyday job that you can just walk out into the street and get like your bog standard enterprise developer for yet another software as a service CRUD app. Honestly, the broad market doesn’t care about a masters in CS. Of course it’s going to be harder to find a job with a highly specialized skill. Why does it necessarily have to be ageism and not just that…

Really? Someone attacking Linux on behalf of DARPA with her experience should instantly be looked at for a principal SDET role.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#195

He knows where is the problem but does not use this knowledge to take a proactive stance. "yes I know that I'm old, BUT shouldn't be a problem for the job because... (I keep learning, update my skills often, can do X) ... etc, etc"

>> take a proactive stance What would that entail?

Someone else mentioned dressing less formally. He can work out. He could also dye his hair and... keep in mind the guy is fairly desperate here... wear makeup.

https://slate.com/technology/2013/09/men-should-wear-makeup-...

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hacking Linux is a specialized skill that isn’t your average everyday job that you can just walk out into the street and get like your bog standard enterprise developer for yet another software as a service CRUD app. Honestly, the broad market doesn’t care about a masters in CS. Of course it’s going to be harder to find a job with a highly specialized skill. Why does it necessarily have to be ageism and not just that…

Really? Someone attacking Linux on behalf of DARPA with her experience should instantly be looked at for a principal SDET role.

Standard testing and security testing are two different things.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#197
This story scares me. I'm not that far off from my 60s and still have kids to get through high school and college. My strategy is to keep my tech skills even as I move more into management. Hopefully, after I'm deemed to old to work in silicon valley, I can still do remote contract work slinging code.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#198
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it disturbing he can't find work as a project manager. If anything, that's one role where the practitioners typically know fuck-all about nothing and where good ones are worth their weight in gold. I LOVE to work with ADULT project managers who have a clue about how projects actually unfold and how things actually get done with a wide variety of personalities in the mix. Instead, more often than not, you get 2…

In today's world of agile development, I haven't met any project managers worthy of anything. I feel that strong product managers are capable of managing development as well. I can't believe there are actual people getting paid to move JIRA tickets around full-time.

I have observed a few over the past years. Their work revolves around starting up the standup call, sending meeting invites, moving tickets/stories/defects and yeah thats about it. Seems depressing and frustrating as a dev. But they seem to be as happy as a fish in a bowl. I don't get it.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#199
post #177

Professional resume writer and career consultant here, approaching 50, and I’ve helped rehabilitate careers of many clients in similar situations. The line that caught my eye was his quote “I have been unemployed for a long time." I believe the stigma of extended unemployment is worse than ageism. What I do is a mix of marketing (maximize assets, minimize liabilities, optimize everything), strategy for job search (be…

I'd like to believe this but I've seen some really great contributors just get unlucky for 6 months or more, and then all of a sudden it's been a year and things are starting to look strange. It's a great market for developers to get hired, but it's still possible to fall through the cracks especially if you aren't good at the specific skill of job searching.

I appreciate the thoughts, and luck does play a part but there are definitely methods to maximize your chances. I tend to find many older workers aren’t aware of how to find a job in the modern market or how to best approach companies. Job search has changed significantly in just the past few years, let alone the past decade.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was on my first job, we got a resume from someone twenty years older than us. Her resume was tossed aside quickly, but I fought with HR to get her to interview with us. She easily turned out to be the best hire ever for our team - she didn't know Java from assembly, but her common sense and problem solving abilities were orders of magnitude higher than any of the "young, hip, programming wizards" in the compan…

To me, this is what bugs me about the “diversity” brigade - most of the time the conversation is based around ethnicity, physical abilities, or gender but for being long-term thinking we seem to have forgotten that diversity means _everyone_ that can contribute, including age / experience. Simply being old doesn’t necessarily make you better or faster, but it does tend to give you skills. Skills that were acquired ov…

I've tried using paraphrases like this "but it does tend to give you skills. Skills that were acquired over a long career. Skills that make them a nightmare for obscure bugs." It falls flat, and all I get quizzical stares.
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