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The World Economy Just Can’t Escape Its Low-Growth, Low-Inflation Rut

nytimes.com

71–80 of 102 posts

Re: The World Economy Just Can’t Escape Its Low-Growth, Low-Inflation Rut

#71
It’s inaccurate to say that we “can’t” escape it. The federal reserve has been raising interest rates to slow inflation and growth in employment, and for years they have paid interest on bank reserves at the fed and constantly talked up plans to unwind their portfolio (selling off assets). If they had done less of all that we would have higher inflation.

Same is true of some other central banks. I always am frustrated when I hear about japan not being able to raise inflation rates much. If their activities have no impact on inflation at all, why not buy up all the securities and foreign exchange in the world by printing yen? The Japanese could live entirely off the dividends because of this magical property of their central bank.

Re: The World Economy Just Can’t Escape Its Low-Growth, Low-Inflation Rut

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What massive efficiencies have technology brought us lately? I count ... fracking as a real improvement. That's it!

Internet? You know you wouldn't be able to take part in this debate without it. I wasn't able to read so many interesting things 20 years ago, and I was behind in everything because I wasn't born at the right place in the world.

20 years ago, the internet was vastly superior to what we have now, which is basically turning into a much worse version of Genie, Compuserve and/or Prodigy (... now with more surveillance dystopia ...).

Re: The World Economy Just Can’t Escape Its Low-Growth, Low-Inflation Rut

#73
As is typical of such articles, this is written from the point of view of a central bank. Low inflation is only a problem to central banks. Central bankers are bothered by low inflation because they can't cut interest rates below zero. The US and Europe inject money into the economy by having the central banks loan it out to commercial banks, who then loan it out at a profit. That's not the only way to do things. Japan uses large government-funded infrastructure projects to pump money into the economy.

The real problem is "secular stagnation". We just don't need that many people to make all the stuff. The US now has a huge population that's irrelevant, and acts as a dead weight dragging down wages. I've been saying this for over a decade, and it's now conventional wisdom, although it took way too long.

Re: The World Economy Just Can’t Escape Its Low-Growth, Low-Inflation Rut

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. Learn how exponential functions work. Plug in 1.03^2000 and multiply by current gdp per person, tell me if that result makes sense.

The question of 'finite resources' comes up a lot when it comes to growth, and the question essentially betrays a lack of understanding of what growth is. We can definitely grow by 3% per year forever, it's easy if you first consider we don't need any real material change for that to happen - it could just mean the 'numbers on our money change' i.e. just inflation. But more likely, there will be material progress and…

Sorry, this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine when people argue that exponential economic growth can continue forever, which flies in the face of anything remotely resembling critical thought. It’s just so depressing that people are so in denial over basic features of reality. You know that bad things are about to happen when people can’t face reality.

Re: The World Economy Just Can’t Escape Its Low-Growth, Low-Inflation Rut

#75

"That helps explain why American workers’ wages have been rising relatively slowly despite a low unemployment rate." Wouldn't surprise me if that's a big part of the problem. Despite tax cuts, low interest rates, and other corporate handouts, nothing's getting passed onto the people who do most of the spending. Inequality is higher than ever and the people making the most money need it the least.

Somewhat counter-intuitively, a low unemployment rate is a lot more important to workers' overall incomes than a rise in wages (given typical variation in both). This is also why high real wages are so damaging when they lead to higher involuntary unemployment: they actively rob those who are most in need of their rightful incomes! It's why recessions make people angry and anxious for "something to be done", whatever…

> Somewhat counter-intuitively, a low unemployment rate is a lot more important to workers' overall incomes than a rise in wages (given typical variation in both).

That's generally true, but it's not an absolute, and it doesn't rule out paying higher wages while also maintaining the current level of employment. It's pretty clear from the data [1] that corporations are earning more than ever and not passing it on to employees.

> This is also why high real wages are so damaging when they lead to higher involuntary unemployment: they actively rob those who are most in need of their rightful incomes! It's why recessions make people angry and anxious for "something to be done", whatever that might be.

That's true, but doesn't apply. Real wages aren't even keeping up with inflation, and are decreasing relative to productivity [2], so it's silly to claim they're so high they're causing unemployment.

[1] https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2018/08/corporate-profits-ve...

[2] https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/

Re: The World Economy Just Can’t Escape Its Low-Growth, Low-Inflation Rut

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think about it, a lot of the arabian/russian/corupt oligarchs money from oil were spent in ludicrous ways, like luxury beyond belief. The economy is getting less value from a fracked barrel, but those money are spent more wisely, returning back into the industry. This is not just sticking a pipe in the ground anymore, we are advancing our tech by using fracking. This is a new economic engine, maybe it's not as…

Well, too bad fracking in the US is on its way down. By the looks of it, it will last maybe 3 years before it peaks out. Then the barrels/day will crash. Not kidding though, and higher ups know... which is probably why the US is intervening in Venezuela, for example.

Source on that?

Re: The World Economy Just Can’t Escape Its Low-Growth, Low-Inflation Rut

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a valid point of view. Has anyone ever stopped and asked if an ever-increasing GDP is sustainable?

This physicist has done a number of blogs on physical restraints on economic growth. https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2012/04/economist-meets-physicist... For example, if economic growth persists black body ration independent of power source raises the surface temperature of the earth to boiling in a few hundred years.

this link is _fantastic_ , thank you for sharing it, i haven't heard this argument before .

First: For a given constant T > 0 there exists C > 0 such that Temp(earth)

  > Right, if you plot the U.S. energy consumption in all forms from 1650 until
  > now, you see a phenomenally faithful exponential at about 3% per year over
  > that whole span. The situation for the whole world is similar. So how long
  > do you think we might be able to continue this trend?

  > Alright, the Earth has only one mechanism for releasing heat to space, and
  > that’s via (infrared) radiation. We understand the phenomenon perfectly
  > well, and can predict the surface temperature of the planet as a function of
  > how much energy the human race produces. The upshot is that at a 2.3% growth
  > rate (conveniently chosen to represent a 10× increase every century), we
  > would reach boiling temperature in about 400 years. [Pained expression from
  > economist.] And this statement is independent of technology. Even if we
  > don’t have a name for the energy source yet, as long as it obeys
  > thermodynamics, we cook ourselves with perpetual energy increase.

  > At that 2.3% growth rate [of global energy consumption], we would be using
  > energy at a rate corresponding to the total solar input striking Earth in a
  > little over 400 years. We would consume something comparable to the entire
  > sun in 1400 years from now. By 2500 years, we would use energy at the rate
  > of the entire Milky Way galaxy—100 billion stars! I think you can see the
  > absurdity of continued energy growth. 2500 years is not that long, from a
  > historical perspective. We know what we were doing 2500 years ago. I think
  > I know what we’re not going to be doing 2500 years hence.

  > If we tried to generate energy at a rate commensurate with that of the Sun
  > in 1400 years, and did this on Earth, physics demands that the surface of
  > the Earth must be hotter than the (much larger) surface of the Sun.
Second: Energy(earth) / GDP(earth) >= K > 0

  > Then in order to have real GDP growth on top of flat energy, the fractional
  > cost of energy goes down relative to the GDP as a whole.
  > How far do you imagine this can go? Will energy get to 1% of GDP? 0.1%? Is
  > there a limit?
  > if energy became arbitrarily cheap, someone could buy all of it, and
  > suddenly the activities that comprise the economy would grind to a halt

That is, assuming we want Temp(earth) 0, K > 0 such that Energy(earth) = K > 0 . Therefore GDP(earth) <= C / K .

Re: The World Economy Just Can’t Escape Its Low-Growth, Low-Inflation Rut

#78

"That helps explain why American workers’ wages have been rising relatively slowly despite a low unemployment rate." Wouldn't surprise me if that's a big part of the problem. Despite tax cuts, low interest rates, and other corporate handouts, nothing's getting passed onto the people who do most of the spending. Inequality is higher than ever and the people making the most money need it the least.

> Inequality is higher than ever and the people making the most money need it the least.

In 2016, for the first time in a while, the middle class grew (in the USA, anyway): https://money.cnn.com/2018/04/12/news/economy/middle-class/i... .

Also, we're seeing real median incomes that we haven't seen for over 20 years: https://seekingalpha.com/article/4231615-november-2018-media...

Re: The World Economy Just Can’t Escape Its Low-Growth, Low-Inflation Rut

#79
post #6

So, I have a question and it may seem like a childish or stupid one because I think I've missed something somewhere. Our society, and I think capitalism in general, seems to be pinned on the foundation of perpetual growth. The question for me is: how can we have infinite growth on a planet with limited resources?

> how can we have infinite growth on a planet with limited resources?

I find it sad but unsurprising that a reasonable question like this attracts a bunch of downvotes here.

I heartily recommend Higgs' book "Collision Course" -- it doesn't provide solutions about how to get ourselves out of the mess that we're in, but it does provide a lot of historical evidence explaining how much public thought and speech around economic growth has been warped by propaganda:

Kerryn Higgs -- Collision Course: Endless Growth on a Finite Planet

https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/collision-course

A few quotes from reviews:

> If modern society ever had a core taboo it is against speaking favorably of limits, especially with respect to growth.

> Higgs explains brilliantly how our ideas about economics and the environment have been carefully warped and manipulated over decades, just so a small minority could get rich.

Re: The World Economy Just Can’t Escape Its Low-Growth, Low-Inflation Rut

#80

"That helps explain why American workers’ wages have been rising relatively slowly despite a low unemployment rate." Wouldn't surprise me if that's a big part of the problem. Despite tax cuts, low interest rates, and other corporate handouts, nothing's getting passed onto the people who do most of the spending. Inequality is higher than ever and the people making the most money need it the least.

> Inequality is higher than ever and the people making the most money need it the least. In 2016, for the first time in a while, the middle class grew (in the USA, anyway): https://money.cnn.com/2018/04/12/news/economy/middle-class/i... . Also, we're seeing real median incomes that we haven't seen for over 20 years: https://seekingalpha.com/article/4231615-november-2018-media...

Those trends began 2011 not 2016. But it's nice the preliminary data shows they may be continuing.

But inequality continues to grow at an alarming rate with almost all economic growth going to asset value not wages. Likewise, the cost for necessary goods such as housing, medicine etc far out pace wages.

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