Oslo made its city center basically car-free • Hacker News Board

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#481

Post by Markoff » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 11:26 AM UTC

openbasic wrote: post #84

danjayh wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

This. So much this. Most supporters of anti-automobile policies think that everyone is a healthy young adult grabbing his latte on the way to his Scrum daily meeting. No responsibilities with dependents, such as children, elderly or disabled family members. No plantar fasciitis, lordosis, arthritis, etc. Grow up. Start seeing the world from the perspective of others.

most of the people in my apartment building are retired people, none of them use car, i have two small children and consider cars in city nuisance, we have 200m walk to tram stop (subway maybe 800m) which can take us anywhere in city, why would i bother with car. it takes me 5 or 8 minutes by tram to reach two different shopping malls, 4 minutes by tram to pretty big supermarket or have 3 other supermarkets within 900m radius

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#482

Post by mymythisisthis » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 11:56 AM UTC

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

My parents are shocked I don't own a car. I have to remind them that when they bought their first car everything was cheap (cars, insurance, gas), parking was plentiful, and there wasn't much congestion. They still don't get it.

Also compare the cars made in the 1950s and 60s to today. The Citreon, the Mini, the VW Beattle, Fiat. They were lucky to get 50hp and up to highway speed. Todays cars are like personal jets. Everyone is rolling around in their own personal jet.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#483

Post by mymythisisthis » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 11:58 AM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #58

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcVGqtmd2wM The City of Golf Carts

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#484

Post by emj » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 12:09 PM UTC

t413 wrote: post #375

smsm42 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm surprised so few people ride motorcycles I would find the risk unacceptable. Basically any flinch of anybody on the road can literally kill you. In a car, you are at least surrounded by the steel walls, so if somebody decides to do something stupid, in most cases, it's metal that gets smashed. In a motorcycle, the only thing between hunks of metal wizzing around and your flesh is a thin layer of leather. Not en…

You're not wrong, and this is the same argument used in regards to bicycling. Something I hear all the time: 'You ride in this city?! Isn't it super dangerous?' When the solution is armor-up with a car and contribute to problem I just think we're thinking about it wrong.

It's the same argument but here in Sweden there a lot more people dying in motorcycle accidents (6x) and a lot fewer riders (1/100x). I think riding a bicycle is considered more scary because everyone can do it and you only consider the worst outcomes, but my 10km bike path is considereably more safe than almost all forms of transport (based on statistics of accidents).

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#485

Post by a12432 » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 12:29 PM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #58

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

Nice strawman. The topic is no cars in the downtown area. You are walking over 500ft downtown from your parking spot to your destination, and there is no Walmart downtown.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#486

Post by kalleboo » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 12:43 PM UTC

karmelapple wrote: post #62

atonse wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see the appeal of congestion fees now that seamless tolls are so easy to collect (using RFID, License Plate Readers, etc). But apart from that, just needlessly taxing gasoline everywhere seems silly when you're trying to just reduce congestion in cities.

Would people who are advocates of a “pay for what you use” system be fine with being taxed by miles driven? Have a yearly inspection of your car for both safety concerns as a variety of states do, and also record the odometer at that point. Tax miles driven, and also multiply that a lot for vehicles that directly contribute to more maintenance on the roads, like semi trucks. It will increase costs for shipping by tru…

Singapore is deploying a system of this kind, with dynamic pricing based on congestion https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/ncs-mhi-to-...

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#487

Post by klunger » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 12:57 PM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #58

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

I live in Oslo and have similar mobility issues (Ehlers Danlos syndrome). I am not classified as disabled, but it is hard for me to walk long distances or stay standing for more than about 30 minutes in general. Luckily, almost everywhere I want to go is less than half a kilometer from the nearest bus/tram/metro stop. If I really need to, I can still take a taxi to anywhere in the city center.

All that being said, Oslo is NOT a good city to live in if you need a wheelchair or crutches (which I do, with unfortunate regularity). 500 meters might as well be 100 kilometers if you are on crutches in the winter. Even if where you are going is right next to a train stop, the stops are not very accessible (long ramps way out of the way etc). The curbs do not consistently have ramps at crosswalks. The sidewalks are often covered in ice in the winter. There are stairs everywhere. Even with a car and being able to park near your destination, you still dealt with these issues.

So, I guess my point is, Oslo making the city center mostly car free is not what makes it unfriendly for people with mobility issues. Taking public transportation is still better than parking and walking wherever. But it still sucks if you have crutches.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#488

Post by frabbit » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 3:33 PM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #175

apendleton wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's important to recognize, though, that in many cases, heavy road users' road use is subsidized by lighter road users. Roads are expensive both in terms of construction/maintenance and land use, they're mostly not paid for by user fees anymore (gas taxes cover a relatively small share, and same for tolls), and many people benefiting from these subsidies are doing so for lifestyle choice reasons and not out…

Actually, I'm going to argue for just the opposite: Let users of cars pay for the infrastructure they use (through gas and plate taxes), let users of public transit pay for the services and infrastructure they use (through ridership fees). Right now, public transit is heavily subsidized by income taxes and use taxes for cars (at least in my area). I think that if all transit users were forced to pay for their share o…

  > Let users of cars pay for the
  > infrastructure they use (through
  > gas and plate taxes),

You couldn't. The cost of providing the road structures, lighting, c. 40,000 direct deaths a year, massive numbers of respiratory illnesses, serious injuries, not to mention importing oil and maintaining the largest army in the world to keep that oil flowing in is massive.

Automobile use is insanely subsidized by our society.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#489

Post by frabbit » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 3:36 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #195

danjayh wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

> I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. Oslo, and European cities without or with much less cars, have tons of people with arthritis as well and…

What about orphaned children with arthritis? How does your elitist public transport serve them? Monster.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#490

Post by frabbit » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 3:39 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #420

vonmoltke wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But >90% of all cars on the road are driven by able-bodied people with nothing but themselves to transport. Nowhere near 90% of cars in city centers, where all these bans are taking place, fit that description.

It sure looks like it on my commute. Maybe your city is different.

There are two people "obviously" disabled in my workplace of circa 400. One of them walks to maintain their fitness from a cleverly chosen home in a town of just over 100K. The other drives. Nearly everyone else drives for lifestyle reasons.

Most people do not need to drive. It is a selfish, ultimately stupid choice they have made.